Kill the death penalty

[nofurylike]

Georgia should put an end to capital punishment
by Scott Henry
June 8, 2011

http://clatl.com/atlanta/kill-the-death-...id=3308758

-snip-

.... But I've also reached the inescapable conclusion that our court system cannot be trusted to apply justice in an impartial, equitable and reliable manner. More than that, though, I don't believe the death penalty justifies its considerable cost.

It's hard not to lose a little faith in state-issued jurisprudence each time DNA evidence proves that some luckless convict spent decades in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Even more damning are reams of recent statistics showing that such factors as the defendant's race, the race of the victim and the county where the trial takes place are disturbingly predictive for whether a convicted murderer winds up on Georgia's death row. Brian Nichols aside, there are dozens of killers now serving life sentences in prisons around the state whose crimes are fundamentally no different from many who await execution. Too often, the pronouncement of a death sentence is an arbitrary happenstance that depends more on political and social dynamics than on the needs of justice.

-snip-

I can no longer think of a single compelling argument against abolishing the death penalty in Georgia. It's not as if any rational person believes it's an effective deterrent to violent crime. And whether or not one agrees with the moral reasoning, America's dogged attachment to capital punishment has lowered our standing in the eyes of other democratic nations.

Frankly, if the death penalty doesn't save the state any money, it cannot be applied fairly and uniformly; and if it arguably doesn't serve the aims of justice in a meaningful way, what possible purpose does it serve?

###

[Eponine]

I agree. We just killed it in Illinois.

[nofurylike]

(06-10-2011 08:02 AM)Eponine Wrote:  I agree. We just killed it in Illinois.

yes!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!
july 1, and Gov Quinn commuted to life the death sentences of the inmates now on death row, and created a trust fund for murder victims' families!!
a heroic example for all governors!!

thank you, Eponine!

[sandnsea]

I think it's more about setting a social order about who we are as citizens. We don't kill. Oregon has an inmate that just requested his appeals be dropped so the death penalty is going to be back in the political spotlight. I get so tired of people who say being against the death penalty is because you feel sorry for the killer. Believe me, I've got not an ounce of sympathy for any of these guys (and one gal).

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northw...h_row.html

[nofurylike]

(06-10-2011 08:46 AM)sandnsea Wrote:  I think it's more about setting a social order about who we are as citizens. We don't kill. Oregon has an inmate that just requested his appeals be dropped so the death penalty is going to be back in the political spotlight. I get so tired of people who say being against the death penalty is because you feel sorry for the killer. Believe me, I've got not an ounce of sympathy for any of these guys (and one gal).

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northw...h_row.html

well said, sandnsea. very important point. i so wish we could get them to listen to that: We. Don't. Kill.
if they would at least hold to that at all times that it can possibly be done - where self-/loved ones'-defense is not at all an issue - we would have no wars of aggression, either.

and then maybe people would see more value in those who are alive, and maybe see that all are even fed ....

values. sigh.

and i agree with you about "people who say being against the death penalty is because you feel sorry for the killer." i always feel like saying, "no, i am worried about YOUR soul."

i struggle for ways to express such things to people whose hearts are so hard.

thank you, sandnsea.

[RoyGBiv]

(06-10-2011 08:46 AM)sandnsea Wrote:  I think it's more about setting a social order about who we are as citizens. We don't kill. Oregon has an inmate that just requested his appeals be dropped so the death penalty is going to be back in the political spotlight. I get so tired of people who say being against the death penalty is because you feel sorry for the killer. Believe me, I've got not an ounce of sympathy for any of these guys (and one gal).

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northw...h_row.html

I agree with one caveat. My sympathy is directly proportional to my certainty that the people who have been sentenced to death are actually guilty. Over the years I have become convinced that far too many people on death row are not in fact guilty for this form of punishment even to be considered an option in a so-called civilized society.

But I didn't shed a tear for Ted Bundy or others like him. I do think it would have been better to lock him in a deep, dark hole and unleash teams of scientists on him to study his psychology and brain chemistry, but I'm not exactly upset that he's dead.

[sandnsea]

(06-11-2011 06:06 AM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  

(06-10-2011 08:46 AM)sandnsea Wrote:  I think it's more about setting a social order about who we are as citizens. We don't kill. Oregon has an inmate that just requested his appeals be dropped so the death penalty is going to be back in the political spotlight. I get so tired of people who say being against the death penalty is because you feel sorry for the killer. Believe me, I've got not an ounce of sympathy for any of these guys (and one gal).

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northw...h_row.html

I agree with one caveat. My sympathy is directly proportional to my certainty that the people who have been sentenced to death are actually guilty. Over the years I have become convinced that far too many people on death row are not in fact guilty for this form of punishment even to be considered an option in a so-called civilized society.

But I didn't shed a tear for Ted Bundy or others like him. I do think it would have been better to lock him in a deep, dark hole and unleash teams of scientists on him to study his psychology and brain chemistry, but I'm not exactly upset that he's dead.

Agreed, but that's also why I posted the link. Going through that list, I didn't see anybody in a situation where there might be a mistaken identity. They all looked like pretty gruesome and straight-forward murders.

I think it would be incredibly healthy if we got to the place where we just accepted that things go wrong with people, for whatever reason, and put them in as comfortable a facility as can be afforded without need for retribution. It doesn't do any good, they've Got No Conscience!

[Treestar]

So many other nations/states have dropped it. They have not experienced some sort of crime surge.

Why this country can be so far behind on so many issues is beyond me.

[nofurylike]

(06-11-2011 10:40 AM)Treestar Wrote:  So many other nations/states have dropped it. They have not experienced some sort of crime surge.

Why this country can be so far behind on so many issues is beyond me.

true, true, and a truly baffling mystery, Treestar. i can't get past thinking it is causatively connected to cowboyism, and other roots of our culture of ultraviolence (reduced value of human life, such as slavery, and other racist foundations). one thing i do know: this country, well, too much of this country - Georgia and Texas, especially - is addicted to the death penalty.

thank you!

[There Is No Spoon]

It makes too much sense to get rid of it, therefore the Republicans will continue to use it as a wedge issue as they got nothing when it comes to actual governing.

[nofurylike]

(06-11-2011 08:15 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  It makes too much sense to get rid of it, therefore the Republicans will continue to use it as a wedge issue as they got nothing when it comes to actual governing.

absolutely true, and well stated, TINS. thank you!

- unless someday justice becomes equal, and they start having to really pay for their crimes ....

not even to mention, "corporate crime far outstrips street crime ... "

start applying the death penalty to that mob of criminals, and POOF! no more death penalty!

[Brewman_Jax]

The reasons to get rid of it are obvious, too obvious, but isn't done. Why? One obvious answer: It lets everyone "feel" better. History has shown that too often the wrong things have been done--but it's alright as long as everyone gets to sleep at night. It's past time that we submit to the better angels of our nature.

It's sad to see that Churchill was right: “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

[nofurylike]

(06-11-2011 11:17 PM)Brewman_Jax Wrote:  The reasons to get rid of it are obvious, too obvious, but isn't done. Why? One obvious answer: It lets everyone "feel" better. History has shown that too often the wrong things have been done--but it's alright as long as everyone gets to sleep at night. It's past time that we submit to the better angels of our nature.

It's sad to see that Churchill was right: “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

very important point, Brewman! thank you!

capital punishment is, after all, the institutionalization of lynching. once people got made uncomfortable about open lynching, giving it a legal façade would let them sleep a little better, i quess.

i think sandnsea makes a good point: "put them in as comfortable a facility as can be afforded without need for retribution." that is a path to those "better angels of our nature," (i love that!) to which you so movingly refer.

from what i've read, Finland has had remarkable success using just that concept.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/02/world/...nland.html
of course, there, there is far less racist and classist interest in an inhumane system.

but we can get there. i believe.

[SeattleGirl]

A friend and I were just discussing this issue last night.

I would love to see the death penalty abolished in this country. It is not a deterrent, sometimes the person put to death is not guilty, and IMHO it's just barbaric.

Even the "logic" of it defies logic for me. Let's say a person is convicted of murder (homicide) and sentenced to death. Do you know how the cause of death is listed on the convict's death certificate? Homicide. Only we (the royal we) have decided that one homicide is against the law and punishable by death, but the other homicide is perfectly acceptable.

And in the case of someone who was executed but later found to be innocent, well, there are no do-overs there. That is one of the biggest flaws with the whole death penalty issue.

Ultimately, it's about revenge. I admit that if someone murdered my daughter, I would probably want to personally put my hands around that person's neck and do the deed myself (there, I said it), but for me to do that would also be a crime. Why is it not a crime for the state to essentially do the same?

Put the person away with no possibility of parole, but get rid of the death penalty!

[nofurylike]

(06-12-2011 01:39 PM)Punky Wrote:  A friend and I were just discussing this issue last night.

I would love to see the death penalty abolished in this country. It is not a deterrent, sometimes the person put to death is not guilty, and IMHO it's just barbaric.

Even the "logic" of it defies logic for me. Let's say a person is convicted of murder (homicide) and sentenced to death. Do you know how the cause of death is listed on the convict's death certificate? Homicide. Only we (the royal we) have decided that one homicide is against the law and punishable by death, but the other homicide is perfectly acceptable.

And in the case of someone who was executed but later found to be innocent, well, there are no do-overs there. That is one of the biggest flaws with the whole death penalty issue.

Ultimately, it's about revenge. I admit that if someone murdered my daughter, I would probably want to personally put my hands around that person's neck and do the deed myself (there, I said it), but for me to do that would also be a crime. Why is it not a crime for the state to essentially do the same?

Put the person away with no possibility of parole, but get rid of the death penalty!

yes! those are very important and strong points, Punky. thank you!

i agree that it is about revenge for the survivors, and for the general voting people who support it.
and for those who jerk us around by rings through our ignorant noses and our neurotic (ie., displaced) frustrations, it is about genocide and greed (eg., prison industrial complex).

i agree, something along the lines of life without possiblity of parole seems an appropriate alternative, because it meets the same need for an ultimate degree of punishment. the problem is that, again, it is a power where the number one danger is in the abuse of that power, against the wrongly-convicted innocent, or those with true mitigating circumstances that could otherwise allow for earnest redemption.

but i agree it would be an improvement, in that the person is not dead when such abuses, and errors are discovered, so i often argue for it, too.

[SeattleGirl]

(06-13-2011 04:05 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  i agree, something along the lines of life without possiblity of parole seems an appropriate alternative, because it meets the same need for an ultimate degree of punishment. the problem is that, again, it is a power where the number one danger is in the abuse of that power, against the wrongly-convicted innocent, or those with true mitigating circumstances that could otherwise allow for earnest redemption.

but i agree it would be an improvement, in that the person is not dead when such abuses, and errors are discovered, so i often argue for it, too.

Exactly! As I said, there are no do-overs if someone is put to death. Locking them up gets them off the streets, AND if ultimately there is new evidence that exonerates them, they are still alive to be set free. Of course, they would have spent who knows how long behind bars for something they did not do, but at least the mistake could be somewhat corrected.

[nofurylike]

(06-13-2011 07:25 PM)Punky Wrote:  Exactly! As I said, there are no do-overs if someone is put to death. Locking them up gets them off the streets, AND if ultimately there is new evidence that exonerates them, they are still alive to be set free. Of course, they would have spent who knows how long behind bars for something they did not do, but at least the mistake could be somewhat corrected.

well said. i agree with you, Punky!
thank you!