Has the United States become ungovernable?

[The Capitol Punisher]

It deeply saddens me that it was even necessary for Obama to release his "long form" birth certificate. It should have never been an issue, frankly. I still wish he hadn't (I rather liked the idea of letting Trump build up some momentum on this issue and keeping it at the forefront of the GOP primary).

Yet, as has been the case for some time now, the whole birther issue both hides and illuminates larger, more concerning problems that are facing our nation. It illuminates the fact that we can no longer have a rational debate in our society. It demonstrates our utter inability to seriously address the issues of the day and our total willingness to delve into nonsense in its stead. And it highlights our meager capacity to trust one another, or ourselves.

Ultimately, such a society--in my opinion--is ungovernable. No President can possibly hope to take on the serious issues facing our country with the gravity they demand against a backdrop of a people who are either unwilling to do so with him, or are incapable of doing so earnestly. When it came time to talk about health care, we descended into an argument over fictional death panels. When it came time to talk about the budget, we instead chose to battle over abortion. When it came time to talk about foreign policy in Libya and Egypt, we became overcome by arbitrary notions such as doctrine. If the American people were a spouse, you would have long since divorced them due to their perpetual propensity for deflecting criticism and hiding from true relationship issues.

All the while, no one bothers to ask what they can do for their country, but instead wonder what their country can do for them. Circumstances will soon necessitate--and I use that word very pointedly--the raising of our nation's debt ceiling. Not one single person who has any clue about this issue whatsoever suggests that we could avoid economic meltdown if we were to fail to do so. This is, or should be, a non-debate, and yet there are those among us who will try to leverage this dire situation to get something, as if not plunging us all into bankruptcy isn't "getting something".

Much of this stems from our collective ignorance. To wit, 60% of the public believes that the budget can be balanced (or close to it) by eliminating "waste, fraud, and abuse." Sure enough, there are--by the reckoning of the Government Accountability Office--several billion dollars worth of waste that could be eliminated. Yet that number would have to at least $37 billion just to shave 1% off of our annual budget. The saddest part of that poll? 53% claim to be paying "a lot" of attention to the budget debate. How can you possibly be paying attention and still believe the problem can be significantly controlled by waste alone? http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/50486.html

In light of this, my question to all of you: do you still believe this nation can be governed

[Velleity]

(04-28-2011 07:22 AM)The Capitol Punisher Wrote:  It illuminates the fact that we can no longer have a rational debate in our society.

I am sorry but I can't answer your poll. It's too depressing.

Somehow we just have to prevail. Fortunately we have President Obama and it's funny that you say that he should have let Trump twist in the wind some more because I feel the same way. But one of the things I admire most about President Obama is his temperament--he is a lot better than I am. He is a lot stronger. He is a lot wiser. If anyone can rise above the cesspool that "conservatives" insist upon creating, it would be him IMHO.

Other than that I would say we need more of us to issue crushing defeat after crushing defeat to "conservatives" so that some day, I hope, they hit bottom and want to recover from their disease. Or else a sufficient number of them will just have to die off until they are no longer a cancer on our body politic.

[azmouse]

This country is at a turning point in its history.
Do we allow racist to have their way and set back progress hundreds of years, or do we move forward using the amazing talents of all Americans to solve our problems?

It's up to us. What kind of country do we want?

[RoyGBiv]

This too shall pass. When have we ever had rational debates on a large scale? Dig deep into the history of the 1930s. We're not experiencing much that is different except that not quite as many people (proportionally) are dying on a daily basis.

There are a number of ways to look at this, and it depends on which end of the telescope you use as to how the future looks.

I hate to put it this way, but I'm going to do so anyway. Anyone who didn't expect this racist backlash against the election of a black President was either delusional or naive. The fact it has happened and that our political institutions are so divided, our discourse so broken, and our values so scattered doesn't make us ungovernable. It just means life continues apace.

It has been worse, truly worse, orders of magnitude worse.

Remember at the end of the day that Obama did win the Presidency, and he is still President, and he has managed to accomplish a great deal despite a massive and irrational level of resistance.

[The Capitol Punisher]

(04-28-2011 03:19 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  This too shall pass. When have we ever had rational debates on a large scale? Dig deep into the history of the 1930s. We're not experiencing much that is different except that not quite as many people (proportionally) are dying on a daily basis.

There are a number of ways to look at this, and it depends on which end of the telescope you use as to how the future looks.

I hate to put it this way, but I'm going to do so anyway. Anyone who didn't expect this racist backlash against the election of a black President was either delusional or naive. The fact it has happened and that our political institutions are so divided, our discourse so broken, and our values so scattered doesn't make us ungovernable. It just means life continues apace.

It has been worse, truly worse, orders of magnitude worse.

Remember at the end of the day that Obama did win the Presidency, and he is still President, and he has managed to accomplish a great deal despite a massive and irrational level of resistance.

I think it's naive or delusional to chalk it all up to racism. We'd be having this discussion if Kerry or Gore wound up as President instead. Do you not remember the direct mailers that said Kerry was going to ban the Bible?

Racism, in this case, is really only the window dressing. It skews the tone and perhaps intensifies the bullshit, but make no mistake, the bullshit would still be there. These divisions go back to before the Civil War, and show no sign of healing.

[RoyGBiv]

(04-29-2011 09:15 AM)The Capitol Punisher Wrote:  I think it's naive or delusional to chalk it all up to racism. We'd be having this discussion if Kerry or Gore wound up as President instead. Do you not remember the direct mailers that said Kerry was going to ban the Bible?

I don't think I did chalk it all up to racism, but now that you mention it, we're kidding ourselves if we fail to recognize that reactionary rhetoric is fueled strongly by racism, that race and matters of race lie very close to the heart of what moves the current incarnation of the conservative movement.

Racism has been the common thread running through many right-wing attacks for a very long time, at least a hundred years. One of the most recent paradigm shifting tactics involves the birth of the welfare queen meme and its clearly racist imagery being used to set up the attacks on the social safety net. The current incarnation of that very same argument is clearly visible within the pages of Paul Ryan's budget proposal.

We have tried to make ourselves believe we're post-racial merely because we elected a black man. Our unwillingness to talk honestly about how deeply tied race is to our current issues is the weapon the right-wing has used against us. We, or more specifically the media, has only the last couple of days called them on any level of it, and at the same time many of us are still sitting here pretending it just isn't so, that these people are a very soft minority.

Quote:Racism, in this case, is really only the window dressing. It skews the tone and perhaps intensifies the bullshit, but make no mistake, the bullshit would still be there. These divisions go back to before the Civil War, and show no sign of healing.

I disagree that racism (and matters of race) is "window dressing."

[janedrake]

The recent "shellacking" at their town halls that House Republicans are taking gives me hope. But I don't know. During the cold war, I used to laugh at Pravda -- then came Fox News to our shores.

The prospect of Trump for President, decades ago, would have been an American media belly laugh. Now...

Ultimately, though -- I still think the effect of the internet and MSM magnifies the number of birthers and other bananas out there.... I still have hope that thinking Americans will pull together and prevail.

[The Capitol Punisher]

My point is that you're giving racism too much credit, not that it doesn't exist or that it isn't a part of the debate. If you go back far enough, you can see the exact same divisions on the exact same fundamental issues all the way back to when we were colonies. The divisions started there and have only grown from that point onwards. We were never all that "United" and though race is a part of that, it is not the start of it and it's not the foundation of it. It has to do with a vastly different world view predicated upon wealth and privilege.

We believe that everyone's entitled to the pursuit of wealth and that the government has a role in ensuring that they get their chance. They believe in aristocracy - get money if you can, and if you can't (and you probably won't), too friggin bad.

To me, that's where the chasm starts. Others think that race is causal factor, but I completely disagree. I think it just fits neatly into the paradigm, and I further believe that it's a tool used to divide like-minded, working people rather than an end in and of itself. And let's face it - it works. Nothing has divided people with substantially similar interests more effectively than race.

My other point you don't seem to acknowledge much, other than to say "I don't think I did chalk it all up to racism". That's fine and all, but look at the track record here - Kerry was bashed for being Catholic and "too rich" despite Bush being rich himself, Gore was "too stiff" and "too smart", they actually did impeach Clinton over literally nothing and claim he had Vince Foster killed, they not only smeared Jimmy Carter - they actually cut a deal with another nation holding Americans hostage in direct violation of the law just to get him voted out of office, and Kennedy was assassinated for reasons unclear. You can even continue if you want to toss Watergate and McCarthyism in there while you're at it. The bottom line is that outrageous smears and outright law breaking is the standard operating procedure for Republicans trying to discredit Democrats. If you honestly believe that Obama being black is even a primary reason for Republican smears and outrage, you're entirely ignoring at least the last 50 years of them doing it to just about every prominent Democrat we've ever had. Again, my point is that racism isn't creating the vitriol, it's merely amplifying it.

[RoyGBiv]

(04-29-2011 11:05 AM)The Capitol Punisher Wrote:  My point is that you're giving racism too much credit, not that it doesn't exist or that it isn't a part of the debate.

I don't think I am, and I certainly don't think throwing about the phrase "wealth and privilege" even begins to address the matter. This is not an either/or situation. It's all connected at very basic levels. You cannot legitimately address wealth and privilege without addressing race while remembering that "race" is a social construction invented essentially to legitimize claims of inherent privilege.

Quote:To me, that's where the chasm starts. Others think that race is causal factor, but I completely disagree. I think it just fits neatly into the paradigm, and I further believe that it's a tool used to divide like-minded, working people rather than an end in and of itself. And let's face it - it works. Nothing has divided people with substantially similar interests more effectively than race.

Indeed.

Quote:My other point you don't seem to acknowledge much, other than to say "I don't think I did chalk it all up to racism". That's fine and all,

It's more than "fine and all." Your challenge to me has made this more about race than my original comment. I referred to race once in my original reply to you, and it was as a modifier to the specific kind of treatment the current President is receiving. This treatment is racist, and everyone paying attention should have expected it.

I did not suggest nor did I intend to suggest that were the President not black that the right-wing noise machine wouldn't have found some other contrived controversy. Had Hillary won, I'm quite certain some ill-meaning individual would have developed a website attempting to track her estrogen levels and tie it to the irregularities of the stock market. In that case, sexism would be the tool, just as racism is the tool now.

But you are making an implication in your OP that somehow we have now become ungovernable, that the lies and distortions and lack of dialogue have gotten so bad that we're breaking down. In that, you go too far. You also go too far in trying to argue that race is not central to the issues we face and have been facing our entire history.

As I said originally, it has been worse, much worse. That does not suggest it is good now, but I see no evidence we have become "ungovernable."

[jaxx]

No, we're not ungovernable. There is a faction that is fighting good governing to push their small government (whatever that is!), creationist religion, racist attitudes, labor hating ideals, and the death of the programs that help the people. Will they win out? No, the very people who voted these vultures into office are now fighting them to save their so-called entitlements.

The people will listen to the bullshit as long as it doesn't affect them.....but when it does they are not going to stand for it. The people who lost collective bargaining are fighting back. The blatant racism is being called out daily.....and isn't it a shame that some still refuse to look at the racism and ignore the idea that this African American President has been hounded from day one!!

On the other side of the coin there are the socialists/far lefters who are trying to take over the Democratic Party with their constant chatter about who the hell knows what their wants are....just to create dissent and let some third party get in so they can get their ponies.

Ungovernable? I think that some perceive this President to be weak. That is their mistake.