Analysis: GOP gets its turn on Medicare hot seat

[nofurylike]

April 11, 2011

http://www.necn.com/04/11/11/Analysis-GO...84cc91587d

WASHINGTON (AP) — Now it's their turn to try to fix the health care mess. Republicans, just like President Barack Obama, may discover that's easier said than done.

-snip-

But it turns out that people now 54 and younger would pay the price.

By one authoritative estimate, they'd be on the hook for most of their own health care costs after they become eligible for Medicare as retirees. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says the typical beneficiary would be expected to pay more than two-thirds of his or her medical costs by the year 2030.

-snip-

The Congressional Budget Office analysis suggested the new system would start running into problems right away.

-snip-

She also differs with Ryan on raising taxes. "You can't do it all on the spending side, because the cuts required are Draconian," (Alice) Rivlin (Democratic economist, former vice chair of the Federal Reserve) said.

-snip-

###

[NJMaverick]

The problem isn't the spending, it's the taxing. They cut the taxes so much for the wealthy they simply can't afford all the needed programs anymore.

[There Is No Spoon]

(04-11-2011 05:15 AM)NJMaverick Wrote:  The problem isn't the spending, it's the taxing. They cut the taxes so much for the wealthy they simply can't afford all the needed programs anymore.

It's part of the "drown it in the bathtub" approach to destroying the Federal Government.

[nofurylike]

(04-11-2011 05:15 AM)NJMaverick Wrote:  The problem isn't the spending, it's the taxing. They cut the taxes so much for the wealthy they simply can't afford all the needed programs anymore.

absolutely.
thanks, NJMaverick.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

[There Is No Spoon]

(04-11-2011 10:49 AM)SemiCharmedQuark Wrote:  Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

I wish we could bask in the glory of the bad messaging of Ryan's moronic budget, but President Obama came out after just a few days talking about cutting Social Programs in his budget. It's enough to make me want to

Somebody needs to work on messaging in the Democratic Party - or we will cease to exist.

[nofurylike]

(04-11-2011 10:55 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:49 AM)SemiCharmedQuark Wrote:  Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

I wish we could bask in the glory of the bad messaging of Ryan's moronic budget, but President Obama came out after just a few days talking about cutting Social Programs in his budget. It's enough to make me want to

Somebody needs to work on messaging in the Democratic Party - or we will cease to exist.

consider: repubs are all gung ho for all that now, thinking how it's all their idea. remember President Obama's ideas for SS reform: those over 250K/year to pay more in, take less out.
remember how enraged many of us were on hearing of some rich folks' receiving numerous large pensions then also getting SS out of proportion with what they paid into it?

y'know?

thank you, TINS.

[There Is No Spoon]

(04-12-2011 03:43 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:55 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:49 AM)SemiCharmedQuark Wrote:  Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

I wish we could bask in the glory of the bad messaging of Ryan's moronic budget, but President Obama came out after just a few days talking about cutting Social Programs in his budget. It's enough to make me want to

Somebody needs to work on messaging in the Democratic Party - or we will cease to exist.

consider: repubs are all gung ho for all that now, thinking how it's all their idea. remember President Obama's ideas for SS reform: those over 250K/year to pay more in, take less out.
remember how enraged many of us were on hearing of some rich folks' receiving numerous large pensions then also getting SS out of proportion with what they paid into it?

y'know?

thank you, TINS.

Yes, I understand there is nuance to this issue. But the one thing you DON'T do is generically state that you are going to propose cutting Medicare, Medicade & Social Security. Well, you can do it, but Democrats heads are exploding. I was so angry about this idiotic first salvo last night that I was screaming at the top of my lungs. You just don't come right out and say (what sounds effectively like) "I'll meet you halfway" when the people on the other side are proposing stuff so radical that it should only be laughed at. I would like just a tiny bit of acknowledgement that Medicare and SS are too important to let Republicans destroy them through cockamamie schemes. I have yet to see a single person on the Democratic side that praised his first statement on this. It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said. Bush would have been (and was) excoriated by the left for proposing such things - we need more stimulus, not more cuts. What is going on here?

[nofurylike]

(04-12-2011 07:37 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 03:43 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:55 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:49 AM)SemiCharmedQuark Wrote:  Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

I wish we could bask in the glory of the bad messaging of Ryan's moronic budget, but President Obama came out after just a few days talking about cutting Social Programs in his budget. It's enough to make me want to

Somebody needs to work on messaging in the Democratic Party - or we will cease to exist.

consider: repubs are all gung ho for all that now, thinking how it's all their idea. remember President Obama's ideas for SS reform: those over 250K/year to pay more in, take less out.
remember how enraged many of us were on hearing of some rich folks' receiving numerous large pensions then also getting SS out of proportion with what they paid into it?

y'know?

thank you, TINS.

Yes, I understand there is nuance to this issue. But the one thing you DON'T do is generically state that you are going to propose cutting Medicare, Medicade & Social Security. Well, you can do it, but Democrats heads are exploding. I was so angry about this idiotic first salvo last night that I was screaming at the top of my lungs. You just don't come right out and say (what sounds effectively like) "I'll meet you halfway" when the people on the other side are proposing stuff so radical that it should only be laughed at. I would like just a tiny bit of acknowledgement that Medicare and SS are too important to let Republicans destroy them through cockamamie schemes. I have yet to see a single person on the Democratic side that praised his first statement on this. It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said. Bush would have been (and was) excoriated by the left for proposing such things - we need more stimulus, not more cuts. What is going on here?

what is going on here, TINS, is that some of us know that he will make it clear. some of us know what he has already said about it, and we can imagine how that fits with what he has gone on to say, and we know he will clarify further.
we know that because he proves it true every time. you know that too.
and didn't he in his speech?

"But the one thing you DON'T do is ... "


i know sometimes it becomes difficult, because those around us, many we have admired, panic that the PL might be right. he says something they milk like they have this, and then we are standing there ....

yes?

he has addressed these things in expressing his values and ethics. he has also shown us that he is incredibly able to weave those values between the reactionary abuses heaped by the right wing. in this case, as in one after another, he has done it by LETTING them create the holes to use for that.

hang on TINS. don't let them throw you off. it has just begun.

[There Is No Spoon]

(04-14-2011 05:55 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 07:37 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 03:43 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:55 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:49 AM)SemiCharmedQuark Wrote:  Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

I wish we could bask in the glory of the bad messaging of Ryan's moronic budget, but President Obama came out after just a few days talking about cutting Social Programs in his budget. It's enough to make me want to

Somebody needs to work on messaging in the Democratic Party - or we will cease to exist.

consider: repubs are all gung ho for all that now, thinking how it's all their idea. remember President Obama's ideas for SS reform: those over 250K/year to pay more in, take less out.
remember how enraged many of us were on hearing of some rich folks' receiving numerous large pensions then also getting SS out of proportion with what they paid into it?

y'know?

thank you, TINS.

Yes, I understand there is nuance to this issue. But the one thing you DON'T do is generically state that you are going to propose cutting Medicare, Medicade & Social Security. Well, you can do it, but Democrats heads are exploding. I was so angry about this idiotic first salvo last night that I was screaming at the top of my lungs. You just don't come right out and say (what sounds effectively like) "I'll meet you halfway" when the people on the other side are proposing stuff so radical that it should only be laughed at. I would like just a tiny bit of acknowledgement that Medicare and SS are too important to let Republicans destroy them through cockamamie schemes. I have yet to see a single person on the Democratic side that praised his first statement on this. It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said. Bush would have been (and was) excoriated by the left for proposing such things - we need more stimulus, not more cuts. What is going on here?

what is going on here, TINS, is that some of us know that he will make it clear. some of us know what he has already said about it, and we can imagine how that fits with what he has gone on to say, and we know he will clarify further.
we know that because he proves it true every time. you know that too.
and didn't he in his speech?

"But the one thing you DON'T do is ... "


i know sometimes it becomes difficult, because those around us, many we have admired, panic that the PL might be right. he says something they milk like they have this, and then we are standing there ....

yes?

he has addressed these things in expressing his values and ethics. he has also shown us that he is incredibly able to weave those values between the reactionary abuses heaped by the right wing. in this case, as in one after another, he has done it by LETTING them create the holes to use for that.

hang on TINS. don't let them throw you off. it has just begun.

Well, it's easy to say after the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned". Except that there was. And it has nothing to do with what anybody ELSE thinks - that's a ridiculous notion - I think for myself. I actually like that he set expectations low for this speech (really low) as I think this is a better approach compared to setting the bar high and then not meeting expectations. I was not only surprised by this new tactic, but as with everybody else here, I was extremely pleased with his new-found fire. You'll see if you read other posts of mine that I was looking for exactly this - the populist rhetoric that is needed to put the stupid Ryan plan (and Republicans generally) back where it belongs. And then I turn on NPR this morning and OnPoint is asking people to weigh in on Ryan vs. Obama - as if the Ryan plan is even a serious plan to be considered - arrgh!

[nofurylike]

(04-14-2011 08:34 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 05:55 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 07:37 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 03:43 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 10:55 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  I wish we could bask in the glory of the bad messaging of Ryan's moronic budget, but President Obama came out after just a few days talking about cutting Social Programs in his budget. It's enough to make me want to

Somebody needs to work on messaging in the Democratic Party - or we will cease to exist.

consider: repubs are all gung ho for all that now, thinking how it's all their idea. remember President Obama's ideas for SS reform: those over 250K/year to pay more in, take less out.
remember how enraged many of us were on hearing of some rich folks' receiving numerous large pensions then also getting SS out of proportion with what they paid into it?

y'know?

thank you, TINS.

Yes, I understand there is nuance to this issue. But the one thing you DON'T do is generically state that you are going to propose cutting Medicare, Medicade & Social Security. Well, you can do it, but Democrats heads are exploding. I was so angry about this idiotic first salvo last night that I was screaming at the top of my lungs. You just don't come right out and say (what sounds effectively like) "I'll meet you halfway" when the people on the other side are proposing stuff so radical that it should only be laughed at. I would like just a tiny bit of acknowledgement that Medicare and SS are too important to let Republicans destroy them through cockamamie schemes. I have yet to see a single person on the Democratic side that praised his first statement on this. It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said. Bush would have been (and was) excoriated by the left for proposing such things - we need more stimulus, not more cuts. What is going on here?

what is going on here, TINS, is that some of us know that he will make it clear. some of us know what he has already said about it, and we can imagine how that fits with what he has gone on to say, and we know he will clarify further.
we know that because he proves it true every time. you know that too.
and didn't he in his speech?

"But the one thing you DON'T do is ... "


i know sometimes it becomes difficult, because those around us, many we have admired, panic that the PL might be right. he says something they milk like they have this, and then we are standing there ....

yes?

he has addressed these things in expressing his values and ethics. he has also shown us that he is incredibly able to weave those values between the reactionary abuses heaped by the right wing. in this case, as in one after another, he has done it by LETTING them create the holes to use for that.

hang on TINS. don't let them throw you off. it has just begun.

Well, it's easy to say after the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned". Except that there was. And it has nothing to do with what anybody ELSE thinks - that's a ridiculous notion - I think for myself. I actually like that he set expectations low for this speech (really low) as I think this is a better approach compared to setting the bar high and then not meeting expectations. I was not only surprised by this new tactic, but as with everybody else here, I was extremely pleased with his new-found fire. You'll see if you read other posts of mine that I was looking for exactly this - the populist rhetoric that is needed to put the stupid Ryan plan (and Republicans generally) back where it belongs. And then I turn on NPR this morning and OnPoint is asking people to weigh in on Ryan vs. Obama - as if the Ryan plan is even a serious plan to be considered - arrgh!

that is good to hear TINS. thank you for being so clear. that "But the one thing you DON'T do is ... " threw me. i also think you missed my having said, "some of us know what he has already said about it," as in, knew before the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned" - well, except in knowing how many would shake with always too-ready doubt.

it is NPR that threw you. i can understand that. i rage at them, these days.

thanks!

[There Is No Spoon]

(04-14-2011 11:35 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 08:34 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 05:55 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 07:37 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 03:43 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  consider: repubs are all gung ho for all that now, thinking how it's all their idea. remember President Obama's ideas for SS reform: those over 250K/year to pay more in, take less out.
remember how enraged many of us were on hearing of some rich folks' receiving numerous large pensions then also getting SS out of proportion with what they paid into it?

y'know?

thank you, TINS.

Yes, I understand there is nuance to this issue. But the one thing you DON'T do is generically state that you are going to propose cutting Medicare, Medicade & Social Security. Well, you can do it, but Democrats heads are exploding. I was so angry about this idiotic first salvo last night that I was screaming at the top of my lungs. You just don't come right out and say (what sounds effectively like) "I'll meet you halfway" when the people on the other side are proposing stuff so radical that it should only be laughed at. I would like just a tiny bit of acknowledgement that Medicare and SS are too important to let Republicans destroy them through cockamamie schemes. I have yet to see a single person on the Democratic side that praised his first statement on this. It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said. Bush would have been (and was) excoriated by the left for proposing such things - we need more stimulus, not more cuts. What is going on here?

what is going on here, TINS, is that some of us know that he will make it clear. some of us know what he has already said about it, and we can imagine how that fits with what he has gone on to say, and we know he will clarify further.
we know that because he proves it true every time. you know that too.
and didn't he in his speech?

"But the one thing you DON'T do is ... "


i know sometimes it becomes difficult, because those around us, many we have admired, panic that the PL might be right. he says something they milk like they have this, and then we are standing there ....

yes?

he has addressed these things in expressing his values and ethics. he has also shown us that he is incredibly able to weave those values between the reactionary abuses heaped by the right wing. in this case, as in one after another, he has done it by LETTING them create the holes to use for that.

hang on TINS. don't let them throw you off. it has just begun.

Well, it's easy to say after the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned". Except that there was. And it has nothing to do with what anybody ELSE thinks - that's a ridiculous notion - I think for myself. I actually like that he set expectations low for this speech (really low) as I think this is a better approach compared to setting the bar high and then not meeting expectations. I was not only surprised by this new tactic, but as with everybody else here, I was extremely pleased with his new-found fire. You'll see if you read other posts of mine that I was looking for exactly this - the populist rhetoric that is needed to put the stupid Ryan plan (and Republicans generally) back where it belongs. And then I turn on NPR this morning and OnPoint is asking people to weigh in on Ryan vs. Obama - as if the Ryan plan is even a serious plan to be considered - arrgh!

that is good to hear TINS. thank you for being so clear. that "But the one thing you DON'T do is ... " threw me. i also think you missed my having said, "some of us know what he has already said about it," as in, knew before the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned" - well, except in knowing how many would shake with always too-ready doubt.

it is NPR that threw you. i can understand that. i rage at them, these days.

thanks!

A good amount of skepticism is always a good thing.

"except in knowing how many would shake with always too-ready doubt" - and I can't stress enough that I will not be kowtowed into being in a defensive crouch simply because I might sometimes share a line or two of text with the always miserable PLs.

Oh, and no, NPR happened this morning! Even after the President's speech, they still feel that Ryan should be considered on equal footing to Obama! Fortunately, you can be sure there were few callers who agreed with Ryan, the net result being to further demonize the craven Ryan plan.

[nofurylike]

(04-14-2011 12:57 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 11:35 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 08:34 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 05:55 AM)nofurylike Wrote:  

(04-12-2011 07:37 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  Yes, I understand there is nuance to this issue. But the one thing you DON'T do is generically state that you are going to propose cutting Medicare, Medicade & Social Security. Well, you can do it, but Democrats heads are exploding. I was so angry about this idiotic first salvo last night that I was screaming at the top of my lungs. You just don't come right out and say (what sounds effectively like) "I'll meet you halfway" when the people on the other side are proposing stuff so radical that it should only be laughed at. I would like just a tiny bit of acknowledgement that Medicare and SS are too important to let Republicans destroy them through cockamamie schemes. I have yet to see a single person on the Democratic side that praised his first statement on this. It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said. Bush would have been (and was) excoriated by the left for proposing such things - we need more stimulus, not more cuts. What is going on here?

what is going on here, TINS, is that some of us know that he will make it clear. some of us know what he has already said about it, and we can imagine how that fits with what he has gone on to say, and we know he will clarify further.
we know that because he proves it true every time. you know that too.
and didn't he in his speech?

"But the one thing you DON'T do is ... "


i know sometimes it becomes difficult, because those around us, many we have admired, panic that the PL might be right. he says something they milk like they have this, and then we are standing there ....

yes?

he has addressed these things in expressing his values and ethics. he has also shown us that he is incredibly able to weave those values between the reactionary abuses heaped by the right wing. in this case, as in one after another, he has done it by LETTING them create the holes to use for that.

hang on TINS. don't let them throw you off. it has just begun.

Well, it's easy to say after the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned". Except that there was. And it has nothing to do with what anybody ELSE thinks - that's a ridiculous notion - I think for myself. I actually like that he set expectations low for this speech (really low) as I think this is a better approach compared to setting the bar high and then not meeting expectations. I was not only surprised by this new tactic, but as with everybody else here, I was extremely pleased with his new-found fire. You'll see if you read other posts of mine that I was looking for exactly this - the populist rhetoric that is needed to put the stupid Ryan plan (and Republicans generally) back where it belongs. And then I turn on NPR this morning and OnPoint is asking people to weigh in on Ryan vs. Obama - as if the Ryan plan is even a serious plan to be considered - arrgh!

that is good to hear TINS. thank you for being so clear. that "But the one thing you DON'T do is ... " threw me. i also think you missed my having said, "some of us know what he has already said about it," as in, knew before the fact that "there was no reason to be concerned" - well, except in knowing how many would shake with always too-ready doubt.

it is NPR that threw you. i can understand that. i rage at them, these days.

thanks!

A good amount of skepticism is always a good thing.

"except in knowing how many would shake with always too-ready doubt" - and I can't stress enough that I will not be kowtowed into being in a defensive crouch simply because I might sometimes share a line or two of text with the always miserable PLs.

Oh, and no, NPR happened this morning! Even after the President's speech, they still feel that Ryan should be considered on equal footing to Obama! Fortunately, you can be sure there were few callers who agreed with Ryan, the net result being to further demonize the craven Ryan plan.

please read back, what you have said in this thread.
"But the one thing you DON'T do is ... "
"idiotic"
"It might have been the most offensive thing he's ever said."

i feel that is more severe than "a good amount of skepticism."

you feel that disagreeing with you is you being "kowtowed into being in a defensive crouch simply because (you) might sometimes share a line or two of text with the always miserable PLs"?

if i feel that "line or two" is incorrect, and overly sharp, i will take exception to it, including here on DFP.

aside: i was hoping to clear this up with you tonight, but i am not well and now find that i have to go offline. i will try to be more clear tomorrow.

meanwhile, will you please re-read what we have discussed here?
thank you.

[nofurylike]

(04-14-2011 12:57 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  A good amount of skepticism is always a good thing.

"except in knowing how many would shake with always too-ready doubt" - and I can't stress enough that I will not be kowtowed into being in a defensive crouch simply because I might sometimes share a line or two of text with the always miserable PLs.

Oh, and no, NPR happened this morning! Even after the President's speech, they still feel that Ryan should be considered on equal footing to Obama! Fortunately, you can be sure there were few callers who agreed with Ryan, the net result being to further demonize the craven Ryan plan.

TINS, i appreciate you for far too many other reasons, to let this continue as a conflict.

maybe some of that skepticism you tout would have helped me, helped prevent the upset i felt at having to disagree with you, with anyone, here in my own community. i am not able to do that. you will see that wherever i have attempted it.

i hope you will understand why i was surprised, and saddened, by your words, and the tone of them.

thank you for engaging this much on this, TINS.

[nofurylike]

(04-11-2011 10:49 AM)SemiCharmedQuark Wrote:  Yeah right. Hotseat. "LOOK AT THAT GENIUS PAUL RYAN'S HEROIC CUTS!!!"

did you read the article?
it is a short time until that is disproved.

it is a ...petard thing. he can not achieve it, and now he can not un-say it.

thank you, SemiCharmedQuark.

[sandnsea]

We're going to have to fight for our values. Just like with the health care bill. We were never going to get single payer. We're not going to keep social security exactly as it is. We either fight for what will work and continue to provide help for the most people, or we will lose it altogether. That's the message.

[nofurylike]

(04-11-2011 12:43 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  We're going to have to fight for our values. Just like with the health care bill. We were never going to get single payer. We're not going to keep social security exactly as it is. We either fight for what will work and continue to provide help for the most people, or we will lose it altogether. That's the message.

who knows, really?
let's say, for instance, repubs force us up against a debt ceiling; we pull out the calculations demonstrating single-payer costs less than not having it, and there is a formula for reconciliation.


thank you, sandnsea!