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Boycott Koch Brothers products
02-22-2011, 01:21 PM
Post: #1
Boycott Koch Brothers products
Considering the Koch Brothers are the biggest threat to our nation since WW 2 it might be helpful to know how to keep money out of their evil hands


Koch Industry Gasoline:

Chevron
Union
Union 76
Conoco

Koch Industry/Georgia-Pacific Products:

Angel Soft toilet paper
Brawny paper towels
Dixie plates, bowls, napkins and cups
Mardi Gras napkins and towels
Quilted Northern toilet paper
Soft 'n Gentle toilet paper
Sparkle napkins
Vanity fair napkins
Zee napkins

Koch Industry/Invista Products:

COMFOREL® fiberfill
COOLMAX® fabric
CORDURA® fabric
DACRON® fiber
POLYSHIELD® resin
SOLARMAX® fabric
SOMERELLE® bedding products
STAINMASTER® carpet
SUPPLEX® fabric
TACTEL® fiber
TACTESSE® carpet fiber
TERATE® polyols
TERATHANE® polyether glycol
THERMOLITE® fabric
PHENREZ® resin
POLARGUARD® fiber and
LYCRA® fiber

Georgia Pacific Building products

Dense Armor Drywall and Decking
ToughArmor Gypsum board
Georgia pacific Plytanium Plywood
Flexrock
Densglass sheathing
G/P Industrial plasters (some products used by a lot of crafters)-
Agricultural Plaster
Arts & Crafts Plaster
Dental Plaster
General Purpose Plaster
Glass-reinforced Gypsum (GRG)
Industrial Tooling Plaster
Investment Casting Plaster
Medical Plaster
Metal Casting Plaster
Pottery Plaster

FibreStrong Rim board
G/P Lam board
Blue Ribbon OSB Rated Sheathing
Blue Ribbon Sub-floor
DryGuard Enhanced OSB
Nautilus Wall Sheathing
Thermostat OSB Radiant Barrier Sheathing
Broadspan Engineered Wood Products
XJ 85 I-Joists
FireDefender Banded Cores
FireDefender FS
FireDefender Mineral Core
Hardboard and Thin MDF including Auto Hardboard,
Perforated Hardboard and Thin MDF
Wood Fiberboard -
Commercial Roof Fiberboard
Hushboard Sound Deadening Board
Regular Fiberboard Sheathing
Structural Fiberboard Sheathing


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boycott-a...898?v=info

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Messages In This Thread
Boycott Koch Brothers products #1 - NJMaverick - 02-22-2011, 01:21 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #2 - Cha - 02-22-2011, 02:22 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #3 - azmouse - 02-22-2011, 02:32 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #4 - Cha - 02-22-2011, 03:15 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #11 - Cha - 02-22-2011, 10:56 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #6 - RoyGBiv - 02-22-2011, 10:13 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #13 - sandnsea - 02-23-2011, 12:50 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #14 - RoyGBiv - 02-23-2011, 01:30 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #19 - sandnsea - 02-23-2011, 02:23 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #21 - RoyGBiv - 02-23-2011, 03:21 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #17 - Cha - 02-23-2011, 01:34 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #18 - RoyGBiv - 02-23-2011, 01:41 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #20 - sandnsea - 02-23-2011, 02:50 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #22 - RoyGBiv - 02-23-2011, 03:44 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #25 - sandnsea - 02-24-2011, 01:27 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #26 - RoyGBiv - 02-24-2011, 02:45 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #28 - Willinois - 02-24-2011, 08:58 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #29 - RoyGBiv - 02-24-2011, 04:15 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #8 - RoyGBiv - 02-22-2011, 10:32 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #12 - Cha - 02-22-2011, 11:05 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #9 - KonaKane - 02-22-2011, 10:40 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #10 - RoyGBiv - 02-22-2011, 10:44 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #15 - NJMaverick - 02-23-2011, 01:31 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #16 - RoyGBiv - 02-23-2011, 01:34 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #24 - RoyGBiv - 02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
boycotts don't work? #30 - thailen - 03-13-2011, 08:27 AM
RE: boycotts don't work? #31 - RoyGBiv - 03-13-2011, 08:31 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #33 - Julie - 10-04-2011, 09:57 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #34 - kahuna - 10-04-2011, 10:37 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #35 - suzie - 10-05-2011, 09:13 AM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #36 - jaxx - 10-05-2011, 06:30 PM
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products #38 - nofurylike - 10-06-2011, 05:10 AM
[*]
02-22-2011, 02:22 PM
Post: #2
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
Might know they were into asswipes. Yay..I don't use any of their stupid products.

Good to have this list to know more about how they make their money to destroy our Democracy.

"Democracy Is Not A Spectator Sport. The Future Is Ours If We Actively Participate In Shaping It" Flag
John Harder~http://zerowastekauai.org/index.html
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02-22-2011, 02:32 PM
Post: #3
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
The only one of those products I know I use is Brawny and it's very easy to buy another brand of towels.

"I give thanks for this perfect day. Miracle will follow miracle and wonders will never cease."

There's nothing more reassuring then realizing the world is crazier than you are.
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02-22-2011, 03:15 PM
Post: #4
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 02:32 PM)azmouse Wrote:  The only one of those products I know I use is Brawny and it's very easy to buy another brand of towels.
I use Earth First out here..it's made from recycled paper and the plastic covering is bio-degradable.

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02-22-2011, 09:38 PM
Post: #5
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 03:15 PM)Cha Wrote:  
(02-22-2011 02:32 PM)azmouse Wrote:  The only one of those products I know I use is Brawny and it's very easy to buy another brand of towels.
I use Earth First out here..it's made from recycled paper and the plastic covering is bio-degradable.

Hey Cha, how do those paper towels work? That is, are they good at cleaning up messes without having to use a ton of them for each job? If they are, I might look into getting them.

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02-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Post: #11
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 09:38 PM)Punky Wrote:  
(02-22-2011 03:15 PM)Cha Wrote:  
(02-22-2011 02:32 PM)azmouse Wrote:  The only one of those products I know I use is Brawny and it's very easy to buy another brand of towels.
I use Earth First out here..it's made from recycled paper and the plastic covering is bio-degradable.

Hey Cha, how do those paper towels work? That is, are they good at cleaning up messes without having to use a ton of them for each job? If they are, I might look into getting them.
Alas, not as good as say Bounty or Viva but they have some good sales at Costco and that's what I've been getting..their TP too. They have these dish clothes from Japan here in the local grocery store that are cheap and remind me of cheese cloth with different colored borders that I have handy to wipe up big spills.

In other environmental news..Kauai and Maui banned plastic bags in the stores so everyone is catching on fast to bring their own unless they want to get their stuff in a brown bag.

"Democracy Is Not A Spectator Sport. The Future Is Ours If We Actively Participate In Shaping It" Flag
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02-22-2011, 10:13 PM
Post: #6
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
I hate to be the wet blanket here, but you're fooling yourself if you think you're avoiding all these products. Sure, you can avoid all the Georgia Pacific branded things like the paper towels and toilet paper, but you are not avoiding the great lot of these, most of which are products *in* other products.

And I'm going to say it again. You Can Not Boycott an Oil Company unless you remove yourself entirely from society and "go native" so to speak. If you drive a car or use *any* form of transportation that consumes gasoline, you cannot boycott an oil company. Cannot. Period. Oil is a fungible commodity. You have no idea at all, ever, where the oil to make your gasoline came from. It comes from everywhere. And, most of the time, you have one or two major refinery companies, owned and/or operated by one of these oil companies, that refines all the gasoline in your area, no matter which labeling is on the station where you buy it.

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02-23-2011, 12:50 PM
Post: #13
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 10:13 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  I hate to be the wet blanket here, but you're fooling yourself if you think you're avoiding all these products. Sure, you can avoid all the Georgia Pacific branded things like the paper towels and toilet paper, but you are not avoiding the great lot of these, most of which are products *in* other products.

And I'm going to say it again. You Can Not Boycott an Oil Company unless you remove yourself entirely from society and "go native" so to speak. If you drive a car or use *any* form of transportation that consumes gasoline, you cannot boycott an oil company. Cannot. Period. Oil is a fungible commodity. You have no idea at all, ever, where the oil to make your gasoline came from. It comes from everywhere. And, most of the time, you have one or two major refinery companies, owned and/or operated by one of these oil companies, that refines all the gasoline in your area, no matter which labeling is on the station where you buy it.

Boycotts do work. The BP boycotts worked. They don't work by making a direct financial impact. They work by making the stockholders skittish. That information is direct from Teresa Heinz Kerry who told groups of bloggers years ago that this was the way to effect change in corporate America. Tarnish the brand. It's expensive to rebuild it. It scares the stockholders, they run. The board notices.
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02-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Post: #14
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 12:50 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Boycotts do work. The BP boycotts worked.

In what way did the BP boycotts work? What was the BP boycott? Can you distinguish between the impact on stock prices of a boycott on BP and the effect of the massive negative publicity surrounding the oil spill itself?

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm trying to get someone to show me some data that backs up this claim that a boycott of an oil company, in and of itself, had any impact whatsoever on the company's stock price. What did the boycott do, specifically, to the oil company's image? Where was this boycott? Who participated?

My contention is that BP stockholders were "skittish" for two reasons. 1) The brand was tarnished by the fact of the spill and all the negative publicity that erupted. This happened separate from and with no respect to a boycott. 2) The stockholders feared that governments were going to effectively dismantle the company's ability to do business.

Quote:They don't work by making a direct financial impact. They work by making the stockholders skittish. That information is direct from Teresa Heinz Kerry who told groups of bloggers years ago that this was the way to effect change in corporate America. Tarnish the brand. It's expensive to rebuild it. It scares the stockholders, they run. The board notices.

Never seen it happen with an oil company.

I've seen it talked about a lot. I've seen people claim it works, but, as with the BP situation, I've never seen it happen in practice.

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02-23-2011, 02:23 PM
Post: #19
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 01:30 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  
(02-23-2011 12:50 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Boycotts do work. The BP boycotts worked.

In what way did the BP boycotts work? What was the BP boycott? Can you distinguish between the impact on stock prices of a boycott on BP and the effect of the massive negative publicity surrounding the oil spill itself?

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm trying to get someone to show me some data that backs up this claim that a boycott of an oil company, in and of itself, had any impact whatsoever on the company's stock price. What did the boycott do, specifically, to the oil company's image? Where was this boycott? Who participated?

My contention is that BP stockholders were "skittish" for two reasons. 1) The brand was tarnished by the fact of the spill and all the negative publicity that erupted. This happened separate from and with no respect to a boycott. 2) The stockholders feared that governments were going to effectively dismantle the company's ability to do business.

Quote:They don't work by making a direct financial impact. They work by making the stockholders skittish. That information is direct from Teresa Heinz Kerry who told groups of bloggers years ago that this was the way to effect change in corporate America. Tarnish the brand. It's expensive to rebuild it. It scares the stockholders, they run. The board notices.

Never seen it happen with an oil company.

I've seen it talked about a lot. I've seen people claim it works, but, as with the BP situation, I've never seen it happen in practice.

BP made significant changes during the gulf oil spill. The billions in the disaster fund, camera on the spill and deep sea work, drilling two wells, lots of things. Its stock dropped in half. That had as much to do with their desire to work with Obama as anything. If the people had believed them and kept buying BP gas, they wouldn't have been in financial trouble and wouldn't have had to do a thing to try to rebuild their reputation. Boycotting helped.
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02-23-2011, 03:21 PM
Post: #21
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 02:23 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  BP made significant changes during the gulf oil spill. The billions in the disaster fund, camera on the spill and deep sea work, drilling two wells, lots of things. Its stock dropped in half. That had as much to do with their desire to work with Obama as anything. If the people had believed them and kept buying BP gas, they wouldn't have been in financial trouble and wouldn't have had to do a thing to try to rebuild their reputation. Boycotting helped.

I think we have large differences in our understanding of what "boycott" means.

I am going to leave this alone, but end by saying I have still not been shown any evidence at all that a boycott of BP had any impact on BP.

Well, before I quit, let me ask a direct question. Did the Texas City BP refinery reduce its operations as a result of a boycott of BP products at any time in the last year?

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02-23-2011, 01:34 PM
Post: #17
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 12:50 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Boycotts do work. The BP boycotts worked. They don't work by making a direct financial impact. They work by making the stockholders skittish. That information is direct from Teresa Heinz Kerry who told groups of bloggers years ago that this was the way to effect change in corporate America. Tarnish the brand. It's expensive to rebuild it. It scares the stockholders, they run. The board notices.
Skittish is good..besides, why use their products when everytime you look at them it reminds you of what's behind it trying to destroy our Democracy?

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02-23-2011, 01:41 PM
Post: #18
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 01:34 PM)Cha Wrote:  Skittish is good..besides, why use their products when everytime you look at them it reminds you of what's behind it trying to destroy our Democracy?

The point I'm making with regard to oil is that you are not actually avoiding using the product of any one oil company by purchasing gasoline from a stationed branded by a different oil company's logo. And this addresses not at all the fact that many, many products in our homes have oil derived products in them.

This is not a "boycotts don't work because we don't have enough power to make any impact" situation. This is a "oil is a fungible commodity" situation.

Let me put it another way.

Let's say you're mad at Iowa. Really, you're just totally torqued at Iowa, and you are going to refuse to buy any products that come out of Iowa.

Okay, check your corn and every product in your house that has any corn or corn derived products in it. Where did the corn to make those products come from?

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02-23-2011, 02:50 PM
Post: #20
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 01:41 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  
(02-23-2011 01:34 PM)Cha Wrote:  Skittish is good..besides, why use their products when everytime you look at them it reminds you of what's behind it trying to destroy our Democracy?

The point I'm making with regard to oil is that you are not actually avoiding using the product of any one oil company by purchasing gasoline from a stationed branded by a different oil company's logo. And this addresses not at all the fact that many, many products in our homes have oil derived products in them.

This is not a "boycotts don't work because we don't have enough power to make any impact" situation. This is a "oil is a fungible commodity" situation.

Let me put it another way.

Let's say you're mad at Iowa. Really, you're just totally torqued at Iowa, and you are going to refuse to buy any products that come out of Iowa.

Okay, check your corn and every product in your house that has any corn or corn derived products in it. Where did the corn to make those products come from?

I'd target Smithfield/Morrell. Pork is the largest consumer of Iowa corn. Smithfield is the largest producer of pork. If you want to make changes in the corn market, you go after them.

http://www.smithfieldfoods.com/our_compa...rrell.aspx
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02-23-2011, 03:44 PM
Post: #22
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 02:50 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  I'd target Smithfield/Morrell. Pork is the largest consumer of Iowa corn. Smithfield is the largest producer of pork. If you want to make changes in the corn market, you go after them.

http://www.smithfieldfoods.com/our_compa...rrell.aspx

The livestock industry is the largest consumer of all corn, not just Iowa corn. I want to target Iowa corn. I don't want to do harm to the Nebraska corn industry, just Iowa's.

You're starting to make my point for me, though. If you want to hurt any individual piece of the oil industry with a boycott, what you need to do is boycott oil, not one individual company's oil because you can't boycott one individual company's oil simply by not stopping at that gas station.

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02-24-2011, 01:27 AM
Post: #25
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 03:44 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  
(02-23-2011 02:50 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  I'd target Smithfield/Morrell. Pork is the largest consumer of Iowa corn. Smithfield is the largest producer of pork. If you want to make changes in the corn market, you go after them.

http://www.smithfieldfoods.com/our_compa...rrell.aspx

The livestock industry is the largest consumer of all corn, not just Iowa corn. I want to target Iowa corn. I don't want to do harm to the Nebraska corn industry, just Iowa's.

You're starting to make my point for me, though. If you want to hurt any individual piece of the oil industry with a boycott, what you need to do is boycott oil, not one individual company's oil because you can't boycott one individual company's oil simply by not stopping at that gas station.

The pork industry is particularly big in Iowa. 20% of the pork produced is from Smithfield. They have 3 packing plants in Iowa, one in Nebraska. Food products have the name of the packing plant on it. So if you want to boycott Iowa corn, boycotting Smithfield products that were packed at an Iowa plant is a good way to do it.

The grape boycott worked. The tuna boycott worked. The KFC boycott to change the treatment of chickens worked. The Taco Bell boycott for tomato prices worked. Nike boycotts worked to improve labor conditions overseas. Lots of boycotts have worked. The BP boycott worked as well, for the purpose in question. The goal is not to hurt them dollar for dollar - but to hurt their reputation and stock price which is much worse.
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02-24-2011, 02:45 AM
Post: #26
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-24-2011 01:27 AM)sandnsea Wrote:  The grape boycott worked. The tuna boycott worked. The KFC boycott to change the treatment of chickens worked. The Taco Bell boycott for tomato prices worked. Nike boycotts worked to improve labor conditions overseas. Lots of boycotts have worked. The BP boycott worked as well, for the purpose in question. The goal is not to hurt them dollar for dollar - but to hurt their reputation and stock price which is much worse.

I think we're talking past each other. You keep saying "it worked," but you're not showing me how. I speak specifically of the BP boycott. For the record, gasoline production at the BP refineries in this country did not waver during the entirety of the oil spill crisis *except* as a response to lowered supply, and that was a very small, brief exception. Even in the wake of millions of dollars of fines and EPA inspectors crawling up their rear-ends, the Texas City refinery was running at maximum capacity throughout the summer and into the fall. With that in mind, in what way did this boycott work?

In any case, I never said boycotts don't work. In fact some boycotts work very well. The more focused they are, the better they work. But "focus" is very often the problem.

To use a couple of your examples, Nike is a not a fungible product. Nike is a company that sells products you can very easily avoid buying. You can never walk in to a KFC, and you will in fact be boycotting their product. If you focus a boycott on either of these or the entire tuna industry, you've got something completely different than a boycott of an individual oil company.

I focus on the absurdity of boycotting a gas station because it is just that, absurd if your purpose is to boycott an oil company. If you consume gasoline or any product that has oil in it, you cannot avoid consuming the oil produced by BP or Conoco or whichever oil company you want to talk about. Ergo, you cannot *boycott* them in this manner.

You can protest. You can write your congress people. You can engage in campaigns against these companies to try to embarrass them or tarnish their image in such a way that investors are reluctant to stick with them. You can stand outside their home office with signs and photos and whatever else you want to use (which is what was done in the case of BP in Houston). But these are not boycotts.

The key phrases in all this with regard to oil companies are "fungible commodity" and "single company targeting" by end consumers.

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02-24-2011, 07:46 AM
Post: #27
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-24-2011 02:45 AM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  
(02-24-2011 01:27 AM)sandnsea Wrote:  The grape boycott worked. The tuna boycott worked. The KFC boycott to change the treatment of chickens worked. The Taco Bell boycott for tomato prices worked. Nike boycotts worked to improve labor conditions overseas. Lots of boycotts have worked. The BP boycott worked as well, for the purpose in question. The goal is not to hurt them dollar for dollar - but to hurt their reputation and stock price which is much worse.

I think we're talking past each other. You keep saying "it worked," but you're not showing me how. I speak specifically of the BP boycott. For the record, gasoline production at the BP refineries in this country did not waver during the entirety of the oil spill crisis *except* as a response to lowered supply, and that was a very small, brief exception. Even in the wake of millions of dollars of fines and EPA inspectors crawling up their rear-ends, the Texas City refinery was running at maximum capacity throughout the summer and into the fall. With that in mind, in what way did this boycott work?

In any case, I never said boycotts don't work. In fact some boycotts work very well. The more focused they are, the better they work. But "focus" is very often the problem.

To use a couple of your examples, Nike is a not a fungible product. Nike is a company that sells products you can very easily avoid buying. You can never walk in to a KFC, and you will in fact be boycotting their product. If you focus a boycott on either of these or the entire tuna industry, you've got something completely different than a boycott of an individual oil company.

I focus on the absurdity of boycotting a gas station because it is just that, absurd if your purpose is to boycott an oil company. If you consume gasoline or any product that has oil in it, you cannot avoid consuming the oil produced by BP or Conoco or whichever oil company you want to talk about. Ergo, you cannot *boycott* them in this manner.

You can protest. You can write your congress people. You can engage in campaigns against these companies to try to embarrass them or tarnish their image in such a way that investors are reluctant to stick with them. You can stand outside their home office with signs and photos and whatever else you want to use (which is what was done in the case of BP in Houston). But these are not boycotts.

The key phrases in all this with regard to oil companies are "fungible commodity" and "single company targeting" by end consumers.

If BP had no issues, then why the multi-million dollar ad campaign?

If it had no effect on local BP stations, then why was there an ad campaign featuring local BP station owners that essentially said "don't blame us - we're just local business owners trying to make a buck"?

If BP had no issues, why was the local BP station deserted and then closed during hours where it used to be open?

It may not have effected BP's bottom line much, but there were effects from the boycott that BP (and local station owners) was very aware of.

Confirmed, Fox "news" makes you stupid

The ones you are noticing are more terrified than anything else. They are lashing out because they are comfortable; and to acknowledge what is happening is a threat to that comfort. Ignore them, for they are not the voices that will rise in the coming days, months and years. They are not the voices of our collected humanity. They are the old voices of fear and impotence. - Anonymous
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02-24-2011, 08:58 AM
Post: #28
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 10:13 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  Sure, you can avoid all the Georgia Pacific branded things like the paper towels and toilet paper, but you are not avoiding the great lot of these, most of which are products *in* other products.

So what? If profits for the division of their company that sells paper towels goes down then I consider that a victory. It harms them by denying them profit they would have otherwise gained. It doesn't have to bring down the entire company.

(02-22-2011 10:13 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  And I'm going to say it again. You Can Not Boycott an Oil Company unless you remove yourself entirely from society and "go native" so to speak. If you drive a car or use *any* form of transportation that consumes gasoline, you cannot boycott an oil company. Cannot. Period. Oil is a fungible commodity. You have no idea at all, ever, where the oil to make your gasoline came from. It comes from everywhere. And, most of the time, you have one or two major refinery companies, owned and/or operated by one of these oil companies, that refines all the gasoline in your area, no matter which labeling is on the station where you buy it.

I think you're being too defeatist by focusing on one drawback. If Koch affiliated stations have to shut down because no one buys gas there anymore then I consider that a victory. It's a little less money in their pockets to fund right-wing hate campaigns. The owner of the station can affiliate with another company.

It's not the most effective tactic in this case but I can't agree with you that it has no impact.
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02-24-2011, 04:15 PM
Post: #29
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-24-2011 08:58 AM)Willinois Wrote:  
(02-22-2011 10:13 PM)RoyGBiv Wrote:  Sure, you can avoid all the Georgia Pacific branded things like the paper towels and toilet paper, but you are not avoiding the great lot of these, most of which are products *in* other products.

So what? If profits for the division of their company that sells paper towels goes down then I consider that a victory. It harms them by denying them profit they would have otherwise gained. It doesn't have to bring down the entire company.

Because I get irritated at people who say "I'm boycotting Company X" while standing there in front of me wearing/consuming/using a product made by Company X, often without them even realizing it.

I think boycotting Georgia-Pacific products is a fine idea. It's clear, it's focused, and it's possible.

As for the rest of the items on that list, good luck.

Quote:I think you're being too defeatist by focusing on one drawback. If Koch affiliated stations have to shut down because no one buys gas there anymore then I consider that a victory. It's a little less money in their pockets to fund right-wing hate campaigns. The owner of the station can affiliate with another company.

It's not the most effective tactic in this case but I can't agree with you that it has no impact.

No, I am being realistic. Sometimes reality has a way of making the best sounding ideas turn out to be crap.

I'm just going to cut to it, and if I offend anyone, I apologize.

Any form of protest that doesn't actually require any kind of difficult choice to be made is the only kind of protest in which most people will ever engage, and I believe this to be counter-productive. Forms of protest that do not involve difficult choices are often not protests at all. The hardest thing about boycotting a gas station is that it might require you to turn left across traffic to fill up rather than right directly into the parking lot. And approximately 95% of the time, the only thing you might be accomplishing is hurting a businessperson that has no direct connection to the oil company you're trying to influence.

I didn't just pull that "95%" out of the air either. Most gasoline stations in this country are owned by single individuals (about 60%) and corporations or limited partnerships that have no direct connection to the oil companies, e.g. 7-Eleven®, Loves®, and various "energy" companies that exist entirely as parent companies for chains of retail convenience stores, car repair and maintenance services, or grocery stores. (I could give you an exact percentage, but I seem to have lost access to National Petroleum News without my realizing it until just now. So, I'm going from memory.) BP still owns controlling interest in about 100 retail operations nationwide, which is about 10% of the total, and they are actively trying to dump them. Almost all other oil companies have gotten out of the retail gasoline business entirely or are trying to.

Now, I know this is the point at which some will pop up and say, "See, look there. The boycott worked. BP is getting out of the retail business." No, BP was getting out of the retail business before any boycott of anything. If the boycott did anything in this context it was to convince any executives that may have still believed there was a future in retail gas sales that they were wrong. Getting out of the retail business has improved balance sheets and bolstered stock prices. The profit margins on retail gasoline sales are excruciatingly small and extremely volatile (2% gross in a major metro area is generous), so small that the problems and costs involved in managing large numbers of outlets were proving to be a drain on revenue and a pull on stock prices. Texaco got out of the business back in the 90s. ExxonMobile is currently offloading all their US based retail operations to other companies and individuals while maintaining a "branded distributor business model."

What that means is that the outlets are allowed to display the logo and agree to sell the branded motor oils, additives, or whatever other consumer products the company may produce in exchange for financial assistance with underground tank costs and fees or, far less often, direct payments. For those oil companies that still offer credit cards, it also means the outlet can accept that card.

Now, you might say that the boycott will convince station owners to dump the logo, which will hurt the brand. You would be right if this were possible. Most of the contracts these stations have with the oil companies for the right to display the logo are very lengthy. The bizarre nature of oil company protests in this country ensures that by the time the contract is up for review/renewal, whatever controversy might have existed to make that one logo look less appealing will have changed to make a different logo less desirable. It turns into a game that the retail outlet can't win, and they don't play it on that level. These contracts don't go year to year. They go decade to decade, often organized around underground tank maintenance and replacement.

The problem is not that the boycotts don't work, per se. The problem is that they don't work long enough to matter to the oil company. They might matter to the station owner, but the station owner is not directly affiliated with BP or Exxon or Koch Industries. He has a contract with them allowing him to display the logo to try to entice customers in to purchase high-profit items or services inside the store or service station, and even if he could dump BP now because everyone is mad at them, he's probably going to end up acquiring a logo from Exxon or Shell that everyone will be mad at tomorrow.

Meanwhile, he and his competitor across the street are both selling gasoline made from oil pumped by Kerr-McGee and a dozen other companies, refined by BP, distributed by Conoco, and transported by Texaco. They all still make money. The guy in the boycotted convenience store can't pay his electric bill.

It's not one drawback. It is a systemic flaw in the reality of a boycott against an oil label that centers on avoiding gasoline stations. It doesn't hurt them. They do not care. If you want to hurt any one oil company by withdrawing consumer patronage, you avoid their retail products, e.g. motor oil, additives, tires, credit cards (when you purchase gasoline, pay cash, always), etc., and you use direct protest, e.g. picketing their offices, drawing attention to the horrible safety and environmental records of their refineries, etc.

Let me draw a bit more attention to one of the items up there that ties a lot of this together, after which I'll quit for now: credit cards. Many people patronize a station with a specific logo because of their ability to use a branded credit card. Well, if you really want to do something, stop using these damn things. Stop using all credit and debit cards at gasoline stations. Always and forever. This is free money for oil companies and their banking partners, e.g. CitiCorp, BoA, etc. It takes away money from the probably private station owner. Cutting up and refusing to use these cards and then making a big deal about it on Facebook that gets a lot of backing *will* cause an oil company to take notice. Saying you're not going to buy Conoco branded gasoline for the next three months (which is a generous estimate of how long any actual boycott would even last) isn't even a rounding error on their balance sheets.

OnEdit: One final thing I intended to mention before I went in a different direction. The National Wildlife Federation, Mother Earth News, Mother Jones, and a dozen or more other organizations and publications friendly to environmental interests have gone on record saying the same thing I am saying. Don't boycott the gasoline station. Instead, reduce your consumption of oil. Walk occasionally if you can. Stop using credit cards to purchase gasoline. Do something that actually addresses the problem.

“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.” -- Dorothy Parker
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02-22-2011, 10:28 PM
Post: #7
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
Way to harsh my boycott buzz, Roy.

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02-22-2011, 10:32 PM
Post: #8
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 10:28 PM)Capn Sunshine Wrote:  Way to harsh my boycott buzz, Roy.

I'm a bad man, I know.

“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.” -- Dorothy Parker
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02-22-2011, 11:05 PM
Post: #12
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 10:28 PM)Capn Sunshine Wrote:  Way to harsh my boycott buzz, Roy.
I don't have a car and I don't use any mainstream products..I've been organic for decades and it makes me feel good that I don't use any Georgia Pacific products or use my money to buy gas.

It may not do any good in the large scheme but as I said I feel good about it and that counts a lot in my book. Cool

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02-22-2011, 10:40 PM
Post: #9
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
I remember saying as much about boycotts on DUh in the remaining month I was there, and the cascade of hate I got from the boogers who were sure their little boycotts of nose wipes would change the world.
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02-22-2011, 10:44 PM
Post: #10
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-22-2011 10:40 PM)KonaKane Wrote:  I remember saying as much about boycotts on DUh in the remaining month I was there, and the cascade of hate I got from the boogers who were sure their little boycotts of nose wipes would change the world.

Talking about this is what got me my first accusation of being a "paid shill" for the oil companies.

I'm still waiting for my damn check.

Boycotts are a remnant of the 50s and 60s generation of protests. They worked then because they were targeted toward local businesses for largely local interests, back when things were still more or less local. The world, as they say, has changed.

That's not to say boycotts are always a bad idea. I've seen them work recently, but they were targeted against local businesses that were doing shitty things to their customers.

“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.” -- Dorothy Parker
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02-23-2011, 01:31 PM
Post: #15
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
The way I look at it, boycotts may or may not work. However I do feel better about trying to give my money to people who are better people rather than horrible people.

“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”

Benjamin Franklin
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02-23-2011, 01:34 PM
Post: #16
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 01:31 PM)NJMaverick Wrote:  The way I look at it, boycotts may or may not work. However I do feel better about trying to give my money to people who are better people rather than horrible people.

And this is fine, but just be clear on the fact that what you're doing is trying to make yourself feel better.

But driving up to the Citgo station on the corner across the street from the Conoco station because you like Chavez and hate Koch accomplishes nothing for anyone else. It might make you feel better, but in almost 100% of cases, the gas in the ground at both stations came from the exact same place and was made from oil pumped by numerous companies and refined by another you probably didn't even know existed.

“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.” -- Dorothy Parker
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02-23-2011, 05:04 PM
Post: #23
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
You've convinced me Roy, the only real way to deal with the Cock brothers is to ____ them.

roflmao

Confirmed, Fox "news" makes you stupid

The ones you are noticing are more terrified than anything else. They are lashing out because they are comfortable; and to acknowledge what is happening is a threat to that comfort. Ignore them, for they are not the voices that will rise in the coming days, months and years. They are not the voices of our collected humanity. They are the old voices of fear and impotence. - Anonymous
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02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Post: #24
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
(02-23-2011 05:04 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  You've convinced me Roy, the only real way to deal with the Cock brothers is to ____ them.

roflmao

I think the word "impersonate" fills the blank nicely. Wink

“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.” -- Dorothy Parker
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03-13-2011, 08:27 AM
Post: #30
boycotts don't work?
Tell that to Glenn Beck, who lost ALL of his corporate sponsors with his outrageous lies, anti-semitic, anti-muslim,distortions, hypocrisy, twisting of data and photos - in short everything Fox News stands for...he's now funded directly by Rupert Murdoch.
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03-13-2011, 08:31 AM
Post: #31
RE: boycotts don't work?
(03-13-2011 08:27 AM)thailen Wrote:  Tell that to Glenn Beck, who lost ALL of his corporate sponsors with his outrageous lies, anti-semitic, anti-muslim,distortions, hypocrisy, twisting of data and photos - in short everything Fox News stands for...he's now funded directly by Rupert Murdoch.

He's pretty much always been funded by Murdoch as far as television is concerned.

Of course, Glenn Beck and an oil company aren't comparable. Thankfully, Beck isn't fungible.

“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.” -- Dorothy Parker
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10-04-2011, 09:21 AM
Post: #32
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
This is an awesome reference - I was only using one of their products, which I am not longer. I will consult this list before purchasing certain products to ensure that I do not support in any way these hate-mongers.

Confirmed, Fox "news" makes you stupid

The ones you are noticing are more terrified than anything else. They are lashing out because they are comfortable; and to acknowledge what is happening is a threat to that comfort. Ignore them, for they are not the voices that will rise in the coming days, months and years. They are not the voices of our collected humanity. They are the old voices of fear and impotence. - Anonymous
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10-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Post: #33
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
This is a great list and I'm glad you posted it. I don't use the branded products but, as Roy points out, a lot of these products are in other things so you don't realize you are buying it. One way to avoid this pitfall is to try and buy used goods if possible. I realize this isn't always possible/practical but I do it when it is. I know that way I'm not fueling the demand for crap.

Also, I do my small part to send support to companies/entities I think of positively. For instance, when France told Little Boots & Co that their basis for Iraq war was a stinky pantload, I bought French wine for my table when I went for groceries. Still do when possible.

A couple of asides: Cha, you go girl!! Cap'n, lolz.

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.

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10-04-2011, 10:37 AM
Post: #34
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
No problem. I don't use any of the products on those lists.
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10-05-2011, 09:13 AM
Post: #35
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
Chevron and Conoco would seem to be easy to boycott. Maybe "easy" isn't the correct word, "prudent" would be better.

They're more expensive than other companies, at least in my area.
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10-05-2011, 06:30 PM
Post: #36
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
I don't think I use any of their products.

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is for good men to do nothing. ~Burke
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10-05-2011, 10:44 PM
Post: #37
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
are they hurting yet?

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10-06-2011, 05:10 AM
Post: #38
RE: Boycott Koch Brothers products
thank you so much for that, NJMaverick!!

that boycott is imperative!!

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