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Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
02-05-2013, 08:07 PM
Post: #1
Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Just watched Ed and the beginning of Rachel on MSNBC. Quite frankly, it seems to me that Ed has a simplistic view of the leaked CIA memo. Rachel, from the nature of her opening remarks, is eager to prove critics wrong that MSNBC is "just like Fox."

So, will 'the left' realize they're being played in time (the leaking of this memo just before the President's SOTU next week is surely no coincidence) or will we now be subject to a week of pontificating and outrage that plays quite neatly into Republican hands?
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Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?' #1 - janedrake - 02-05-2013, 08:07 PM
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02-05-2013, 09:02 PM
Post: #2
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Authorization for Use of Military Force - While I don't think that gives the President authorization to invade another country or go after random bands of terrorists all over the world, I do think the actions currently taken, as I understand them, are part of fighting a war. I know there are people who think these terrorists should be pursued like a group of drug dealers or money launderers or something, law breakers. I am one who does believe 9/11 changed all of that and as long as the President, with Congressional and FISA Court oversight, is operating within strict adherance to seeking al qaeda terrorists, then that's what he should be doing. I said the same thing under Bush.

I also don't think a memo that says something is legal means that the President acted on that particular line of advise.
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02-07-2013, 09:04 PM
Post: #15
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
(02-05-2013 09:02 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Authorization for Use of Military Force - While I don't think that gives the President authorization to invade another country or go after random bands of terrorists all over the world, I do think the actions currently taken, as I understand them, are part of fighting a war. I know there are people who think these terrorists should be pursued like a group of drug dealers or money launderers or something, law breakers. I am one who does believe 9/11 changed all of that and as long as the President, with Congressional and FISA Court oversight, is operating within strict adherance to seeking al qaeda terrorists, then that's what he should be doing. I said the same thing under Bush.

I also don't think a memo that says something is legal means that the President acted on that particular line of advise.

I agree completely. I think people sometimes forget we are engaged in a war that is like no other war we've been involved in before. This is a 21st century war, a war not with a country but with an organization that moves around. They are constantly thinking of new ways to hurt us so we have to think and act differently to the threat than we did in the past.

"Understand that the more deeply you hold your ideals,
the more you are morally obligated to be pragmatic...Idealism without pragmatism
is just a way to flatter your ego." -Barney Frank
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02-05-2013, 09:34 PM
Post: #3
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, SandnSea. I didn't go on to watch Rachel tonight, because I wanted to get a look at the white paper myself before getting an earful of her perspective. The first thing that struck me is that from its first paragraph, the paper emphasizes that this is a legal opinion with a very narrow definition:

Quote: This white paper sets forth a legal framework for considering the circumstances in which the U.S. government could use lethal force in a foreign country outside the area of active hostilities against a U.S. citizen who is a senior operational leader of al-Qa'ida or an associated force of al-Qa'ida -- that is, an al-Qa'ida leader actively engaged in planning operations to kill Americans...."

To listen to Ed tonight, this is what I heard (paraphrasing, but not much) -- "Do you agree that the United States government should be able to target innocent Americans for assassination?!"

That is clearly not the purpose of this DoJ opinion paper. Nor is it the jurisdiction of lawyers at the DoJ to determine who is, and isn't "a senior operational leader of al-Qa'ida or an associated force of al-Qa'ida" -- that's why they make it clear up front they are not going to determine, with this paper, how to determine who is and isn't a threat -- that's not their job nor their jurisdiction. What they're doing with this memo is answering the question, "if an American is allied with al-Qa'ida in a senior or associated role to kill Americans, can we legally use lethal force to go after them?"

That's a far cry from what I've seen on 'the left' today vis a vis, "Is it okay for the government to target innocent Americans for assassination?!" A far cry.

Here's the link to the white paper:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sectio..._Paper.pdf
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02-05-2013, 10:30 PM
Post: #4
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Yes, just catching part of Rachel tonight, Paul said WTF?? He really thought for a second it was here in the US -- totally missed the "foreign country" (as in Yemen) part. Ed's constant teases about it were hyped over and over. Vomit

I was born a Truman, but you can call me Pat. Wave

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02-06-2013, 07:35 AM
Post: #5
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Instead of focusing on destroying Al Quaeda in Afghanistan, the Bush Administration invaded Iraq and created a giant recruitment poster for AlQ recruits all over the arab world. While at the same time taking pressure off the original AlQ organization.

Now, the Obama administration and any future presidents must deal with all the AlQ franchises that have emerged in Yemen, Libya, Mali and 50+ other countries as they try to keep Americans safe. And instead of pointing out that this is one of those things that really is Bush's fault, our "left" commentators want to let us know that it's all the fault of a Democratic president.

Shame on them!
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02-06-2013, 08:49 AM
Post: #6
Any comments on this opinion piece from the NYT?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/opinio...ml?hp&_r=0

Quote:To Kill an American

On one level, there were not too many surprises in the newly disclosed “white paper” offering a legal reasoning behind the claim that President Obama has the power to order the killing of American citizens who are believed to be part of Al Qaeda. We knew Mr. Obama and his lawyers believed he has that power under the Constitution and federal law. We also knew that he utterly rejects the idea that Congress or the courts have any right to review such a decision in advance, or even after the fact.

Still, it was disturbing to see the twisted logic of the administration’s lawyers laid out in black and white. It had the air of a legal justification written after the fact for a policy decision that had already been made, and it brought back unwelcome memories of memos written for President George W. Bush to justify illegal wiretapping, indefinite detention, kidnapping, abuse and torture.

The document, obtained and made public by NBC News, was written by the Justice Department and coyly describes another, classified document (which has been described in The Times) that actually provided the legal justification for ordering the killing of American citizens.

That document still has not been provided to Congress, despite repeated demands from lawmakers. The white paper was sent to Capitol Hill seven months after the military carried out President Obama’s orders to kill Anwar al-Awlaki, an American who moved to Yemen and became an advocate of jihad against the United States.

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02-07-2013, 09:29 PM
Post: #16
RE: Any comments on this opinion piece from the NYT?
(02-06-2013 08:49 AM)azmouse Wrote:  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/opinio...ml?hp&_r=0

Quote:To Kill an American

On one level, there were not too many surprises in the newly disclosed “white paper” offering a legal reasoning behind the claim that President Obama has the power to order the killing of American citizens who are believed to be part of Al Qaeda. We knew Mr. Obama and his lawyers believed he has that power under the Constitution and federal law. We also knew that he utterly rejects the idea that Congress or the courts have any right to review such a decision in advance, or even after the fact.

Still, it was disturbing to see the twisted logic of the administration’s lawyers laid out in black and white. It had the air of a legal justification written after the fact for a policy decision that had already been made, and it brought back unwelcome memories of memos written for President George W. Bush to justify illegal wiretapping, indefinite detention, kidnapping, abuse and torture.

The document, obtained and made public by NBC News, was written by the Justice Department and coyly describes another, classified document (which has been described in The Times) that actually provided the legal justification for ordering the killing of American citizens.

That document still has not been provided to Congress, despite repeated demands from lawmakers. The white paper was sent to Capitol Hill seven months after the military carried out President Obama’s orders to kill Anwar al-Awlaki, an American who moved to Yemen and became an advocate of jihad against the United States.

I think that's the legacy of George W Bush. He abused his powers and so we are naturally more suspicious, but I don't think the man who ended Bush's war in Iraq and is ending the war in Afghanistan is a warmonger and/or is hungry to use force like Dumbya was. He also doesn't let a bunch of warmongering neo-cons dictate policy to him.

But I think it's too simplistic to say this new document provides the President "the legal justification for ordering the killing of American citizens." These particular "American citizens" are people who have declared war on their fellow American citizens! American citizens killed over 200,000 "American citizens" during the civil war.

"Understand that the more deeply you hold your ideals,
the more you are morally obligated to be pragmatic...Idealism without pragmatism
is just a way to flatter your ego." -Barney Frank
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02-06-2013, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2013 09:13 AM by janedrake.)
Post: #7
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Where the disconnect comes in for me on coverage of this is that there is a world of difference between "To Kill an American" and "To Kill an American on foreign soil who is a senior operational officer in al-Qa'ida, or significantly allied with al-Qa'ida, and who is engaged in the specific aim of plotting to kill his fellow Americans."

If you asked Joe Schmoe on the street, "Do you think the President should have the right to use lethal force against Americans?" and "Do you think the President should have the right to use lethal force against Americans who are actively engaged in other countries with al-Qa'ida and are plotting strikes against other Americans?" there would be two distinctly different answers in most cases. But the coverage of this has tended to be, Do you think the President has the right to use lethal force against Americans?
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02-06-2013, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2013 05:42 PM by Drunken Irishman.)
Post: #8
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
I really am trying to find the outrage and it's difficult. I think there are some on the left who live in this black and white world where there are absolutes ... but that rarely is ever the case. I mean, it would be nice if we could pull up our tents, remove ourselves from the Middle East and never have to worry about terrorism again. But does anyone really believe we can ignore this problem to the point it goes away?

I guess I'm just confused at what the those venting really want to do. They believe in this idea of blowback, which I think has some merits, but it's not like we're dealing with a rational group here. We remove ourselves entirely from the area, do away with drones and then what? Pray nothing happens? Are these people naive enough to believe that the only thing feeding terrorism is our presence in that region? Maybe it was originally ... maybe you could tie it back to the mistakes of past presidents, but I don't think that's the case anymore. We're not at a position where we can retreat, close up our borders and ignore the threat - especially when it continues to spread throughout Africa.

What I find fascinating is how much the left has ignored France's invasion of Mali. They're ignoring it because so many of these people supported the socialist Hollande and yet, here he is going to war against a body, a group, that Obama has been spending his entire presidency fighting.

Is Hollande a warmonger?

No. He's just smart. He realizes there is a threat out there and it's not going to go away just because we ignore it. Unfortunately, there are really only three options and none ideal, but this is not an ideal situation.

1) Add more troops, declare more war, send boots on the ground into Afghanistan, Pakistan and other regions (specifically in Africa) to fight these terrorist cells without drones, risking thousands of American lives and further eroding our standing.

2) Use drone strikes in a reasonable, and justifiable matter that does not put any American lives in danger and has proven, whether the left wants to admit it or not, far safer and more successful than all-out warfare.

2) Do nothing and pretend the problem doesn't exist and hope it goes away.

The latter is the most dangerous. You know, it's interesting how so many on the left spent the last decade on Bush's nuts for not doing anything to thwart the 9/11 attacks and here Obama is pretty much doing what these people wanted Bush to do in 2001 - secure America by taking out our enemies. Now I don't know, maybe they live in a fantasy land where this issue could've been solved solely by warrants and arrests, but I disagree. 9/11 was not going to be easily stopped that way. It would've taken something similar to what we're seeing now.

Here's one for you - what if Clinton successfully used a drone to kill bin Laden in 1999? How dramatic of an impact would that have had on the creation of al-Qaeda? The left probably would've been up in arms over it (the right too because everything a Democrat does is bad), but knowing what we know now ... it could have saved the lives of 3,000 Americans, plus those Americans who died in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

But ignoring the problem is not going to solve it. They'll continue spreading their hate and they'll continue building their ranks until one day ... maybe not here in America, but back in Europe, they'll successfully attack again. And then what? What happens if Obama uproots all soldiers from Afghanistan, halts drone strikes and we're attacked?

Then you'll have the right demanding why Obama didn't thwart it - just as the left has for the last decade when it came to 9/11.
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02-06-2013, 05:52 PM
Post: #9
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
(02-06-2013 05:37 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  I really am trying to find the outrage and it's difficult. I think there are some on the left who live in this black and white world where there are absolutes ... but that rarely is ever the case. I mean, it would be nice if we could pull up our tents, remove ourselves from the Middle East and never have to worry about terrorism again. But does anyone really believe we can ignore this problem to the point it goes away?

I guess I'm just confused at what the those venting really want to do. They believe in this idea of blowback, which I think has some merits, but it's not like we're dealing with a rational group here. We remove ourselves entirely from the area, do away with drones and then what? Pray nothing happens? Are these people naive enough to believe that the only thing feeding terrorism is our presence in that region? Maybe it was originally ... maybe you could tie it back to the mistakes of past presidents, but I don't think that's the case anymore. We're not at a position where we can retreat, close up our borders and ignore the threat - especially when it continues to spread throughout Africa.

What I find fascinating is how much the left has ignored France's invasion of Mali. They're ignoring it because so many of these people supported the socialist Hollande and yet, here he is going to war against a body, a group, that Obama has been spending his entire presidency fighting.

Is Hollande a warmonger?

No. He's just smart. He realizes there is a threat out there and it's not going to go away just because we ignore it. Unfortunately, there are really only three options and none ideal, but this is not an ideal situation.

1) Add more troops, declare more war, send boots on the ground into Afghanistan, Pakistan and other regions (specifically in Africa) to fight these terrorist cells without drones, risking thousands of American lives and further eroding our standing.

2) Use drone strikes in a reasonable, and justifiable matter that does not put any American lives in danger and has proven, whether the left wants to admit it or not, far safer and more successful than all-out warfare.

2) Do nothing and pretend the problem doesn't exist and hope it goes away.

The latter is the most dangerous. You know, it's interesting how so many on the left spent the last decade on Bush's nuts for not doing anything to thwart the 9/11 attacks and here Obama is pretty much doing what these people wanted Bush to do in 2001 - secure America by taking out our enemies. Now I don't know, maybe they live in a fantasy land where this issue could've been solved solely by warrants and arrests, but I disagree. 9/11 was not going to be easily stopped that way. It would've taken something similar to what we're seeing now.

Here's one for you - what if Clinton successfully used a drone to kill bin Laden in 1999? How dramatic of an impact would that have had on the creation of al-Qaeda? The left probably would've been up in arms over it (the right too because everything a Democrat does is bad), but knowing what we know now ... it could have saved the lives of 3,000 Americans, plus those Americans who died in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

But ignoring the problem is not going to solve it. They'll continue spreading their hate and they'll continue building their ranks until one day ... maybe not here in America, but back in Europe, they'll successfully attack again. And then what? What happens if Obama uproots all soldiers from Afghanistan, halts drone strikes and we're attacked?

Then you'll have the right demanding why Obama didn't thwart it - just as the left has for the last decade when it came to 9/11.

I think there are more options than the 3 you listed, like more human intel for instance. I think you'll see a lot more of that with Kerry & Hagel, neither of whom will probably be a fan of drone strikes against Americans unless there's an imminent threat. Still, I agree with your overall point, as I said above. I do see this as a war and one that has to be fought, but fought smartly and perhaps more smartly than we have even done under Obama thus far.
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02-07-2013, 09:56 PM
Post: #17
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
(02-06-2013 05:37 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  I really am trying to find the outrage and it's difficult. I think there are some on the left who live in this black and white world where there are absolutes ... but that rarely is ever the case. I mean, it would be nice if we could pull up our tents, remove ourselves from the Middle East and never have to worry about terrorism again. But does anyone really believe we can ignore this problem to the point it goes away?

I guess I'm just confused at what the those venting really want to do. They believe in this idea of blowback, which I think has some merits, but it's not like we're dealing with a rational group here. We remove ourselves entirely from the area, do away with drones and then what? Pray nothing happens? Are these people naive enough to believe that the only thing feeding terrorism is our presence in that region? Maybe it was originally ... maybe you could tie it back to the mistakes of past presidents, but I don't think that's the case anymore. We're not at a position where we can retreat, close up our borders and ignore the threat - especially when it continues to spread throughout Africa.

What I find fascinating is how much the left has ignored France's invasion of Mali. They're ignoring it because so many of these people supported the socialist Hollande and yet, here he is going to war against a body, a group, that Obama has been spending his entire presidency fighting.

Is Hollande a warmonger?

No. He's just smart. He realizes there is a threat out there and it's not going to go away just because we ignore it. Unfortunately, there are really only three options and none ideal, but this is not an ideal situation.

1) Add more troops, declare more war, send boots on the ground into Afghanistan, Pakistan and other regions (specifically in Africa) to fight these terrorist cells without drones, risking thousands of American lives and further eroding our standing.

2) Use drone strikes in a reasonable, and justifiable matter that does not put any American lives in danger and has proven, whether the left wants to admit it or not, far safer and more successful than all-out warfare.

2) Do nothing and pretend the problem doesn't exist and hope it goes away.

The latter is the most dangerous. You know, it's interesting how so many on the left spent the last decade on Bush's nuts for not doing anything to thwart the 9/11 attacks and here Obama is pretty much doing what these people wanted Bush to do in 2001 - secure America by taking out our enemies. Now I don't know, maybe they live in a fantasy land where this issue could've been solved solely by warrants and arrests, but I disagree. 9/11 was not going to be easily stopped that way. It would've taken something similar to what we're seeing now.

Here's one for you - what if Clinton successfully used a drone to kill bin Laden in 1999? How dramatic of an impact would that have had on the creation of al-Qaeda? The left probably would've been up in arms over it (the right too because everything a Democrat does is bad), but knowing what we know now ... it could have saved the lives of 3,000 Americans, plus those Americans who died in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

But ignoring the problem is not going to solve it. They'll continue spreading their hate and they'll continue building their ranks until one day ... maybe not here in America, but back in Europe, they'll successfully attack again. And then what? What happens if Obama uproots all soldiers from Afghanistan, halts drone strikes and we're attacked?

Then you'll have the right demanding why Obama didn't thwart it - just as the left has for the last decade when it came to 9/11.

Well said! There are some people on the left who think if they say "no more war" enough that it will just go away. If only! We should be realistic and add "war" to "death and taxes" of things that are certain. There's never been a period in human history when there was no war. That doesn't mean we don't try to avoid it, or end it, but, like death and taxes, we must come to grips with the fact that war an unfortunate fact of life.

If we have to kill to protect ourselves, I'd rather it be nameless drones and not human beings!

"Understand that the more deeply you hold your ideals,
the more you are morally obligated to be pragmatic...Idealism without pragmatism
is just a way to flatter your ego." -Barney Frank
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02-06-2013, 06:37 PM
Post: #10
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Sandneasa, something to add...9/11 and the response to 9/11 Changed everything. If Bush and his cronies would have taken OBL out when they had him sighted in Tora Bora we would be having a different conversation. By not ending it then, the enemies of the U.S were allowed to run amok.

For those Americans that "CHOOSE" to join terroristic factions and plan and/or attack the United States, those persons have stepped beyond the rights that all Americans are guaranteed. They "ARE" the enemy.

My question today is we have groups in America planning and dropping hints of attacking the government. They are stockpiling weapons etc, Waco and Ruby Ridge are the rallying cry of this group of people who feel they have been neglected and ignored. Oklahoma was just a hint at what they want to do this country. The TeaBagger movement was a manifestation of these anti-American sentiments. It is only a matter of time before another Oklahoma happens because these same gun right fanatics hide behind Faux News and the 2nd Amendment.

All I know as a Black American is that when the Black Panthers claimed the same rights they were firebombed, murdered and crushed......(not that I supported their radical agenda) but they had every right to claim their rights just as the nuts today but they weren't allowed to.

Now having said that, it is possible for this doctrine to go very wrong. Without checks and balances it is guaranted to go off the rails maybe not in the next 4 years but in different administration.

“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

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02-06-2013, 06:57 PM
Post: #11
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
(02-06-2013 06:37 PM)OptimistesMaddie Wrote:  Sandneasa, something to add...9/11 and the response to 9/11 Changed everything. If Bush and his cronies would have taken OBL out when they had him sighted in Tora Bora we would be having a different conversation. By not ending it then, the enemies of the U.S were allowed to run amok.

For those Americans that "CHOOSE" to join terroristic factions and plan and/or attack the United States, those persons have stepped beyond the rights that all Americans are guaranteed. They "ARE" the enemy.

My question today is we have groups in America planning and dropping hints of attacking the government. They are stockpiling weapons etc, Waco and Ruby Ridge are the rallying cry of this group of people who feel they have been neglected and ignored. Oklahoma was just a hint at what they want to do this country. The TeaBagger movement was a manifestation of these anti-American sentiments. It is only a matter of time before another Oklahoma happens because these same gun right fanatics hide behind Faux News and the 2nd Amendment.

All I know as a Black American is that when the Black Panthers claimed the same rights they were firebombed, murdered and crushed......(not that I supported their radical agenda) but they had every right to claim their rights just as the nuts today but they weren't allowed to.

Now having said that, it is possible for this doctrine to go very wrong. Without checks and balances it is guaranted to go off the rails maybe not in the next 4 years but in different administration.

First, I don't know that there is a "doctrine". What I know a this point is that there's a memo that outlined legal arguments. I have no idea how the Obama Administration has used any of those legal arguments to implement policy.

Second, the memo in question specifically, with absolutely not an inch of wiggle room, states that it only addresses American citizens in foreign lands who are senior members of al-qaeda or otherwise directly engaged in plotting attack against the US or US citizens. It absolutely cannot be interpreted to approve the use of drones on US soil.

Which means your concerns aren't even addressed in this memo and probably nowhere else either. The limitations of drones on US soil is an absolute constitutional concern, but while the ACLU is busy freaking out about Obama's "kill list", they're totally ignoring what they're supposed to be paying attention to - *our* civil rights here at home. IMO
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02-07-2013, 04:13 PM
Post: #12
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
(02-06-2013 06:57 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  
(02-06-2013 06:37 PM)OptimistesMaddie Wrote:  Sandneasa, something to add...9/11 and the response to 9/11 Changed everything. If Bush and his cronies would have taken OBL out when they had him sighted in Tora Bora we would be having a different conversation. By not ending it then, the enemies of the U.S were allowed to run amok.

For those Americans that "CHOOSE" to join terroristic factions and plan and/or attack the United States, those persons have stepped beyond the rights that all Americans are guaranteed. They "ARE" the enemy.

My question today is we have groups in America planning and dropping hints of attacking the government. They are stockpiling weapons etc, Waco and Ruby Ridge are the rallying cry of this group of people who feel they have been neglected and ignored. Oklahoma was just a hint at what they want to do this country. The TeaBagger movement was a manifestation of these anti-American sentiments. It is only a matter of time before another Oklahoma happens because these same gun right fanatics hide behind Faux News and the 2nd Amendment.

All I know as a Black American is that when the Black Panthers claimed the same rights they were firebombed, murdered and crushed......(not that I supported their radical agenda) but they had every right to claim their rights just as the nuts today but they weren't allowed to.

Now having said that, it is possible for this doctrine to go very wrong. Without checks and balances it is guaranted to go off the rails maybe not in the next 4 years but in different administration.

First, I don't know that there is a "doctrine". What I know a this point is that there's a memo that outlined legal arguments. I have no idea how the Obama Administration has used any of those legal arguments to implement policy.

Second, the memo in question specifically, with absolutely not an inch of wiggle room, states that it only addresses American citizens in foreign lands who are senior members of al-qaeda or otherwise directly engaged in plotting attack against the US or US citizens. It absolutely cannot be interpreted to approve the use of drones on US soil.

Which means your concerns aren't even addressed in this memo and probably nowhere else either. The limitations of drones on US soil is an absolute constitutional concern, but while the ACLU is busy freaking out about Obama's "kill list", they're totally ignoring what they're supposed to be paying attention to - *our* civil rights here at home. IMO

No argument with you. I agree that on American soil we must be vigilant to protect our rights as American citizens. If an American is on foreign soil and buddies well terrrorist....well they should suffer the consequences.

I suppose my concern is when Janet Napolitano came out in 2009 and claimed that the right wing militia's were the greatest threat on American soil...she retracted it. I want to see the policy that addresses these groups because if there is no plan....America can act surprised when Oklahoma happens again. That's kind of where I was going ...I supposed it could have been another thread...but food for thought...

“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

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02-07-2013, 05:27 PM
Post: #13
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
I think this is something that needs to come out in the public and it needs to be debated. I'm not too worried about Republican tactics. When have they actually defeated President Obama?

As for the professional left, or whatever they are, is there a less influential group? What a bunch of losers.

As for Ed, I won't forget his hissy fit after the first debate with Romney. I still like Ed but he's lost a fair amount of credibility with me.
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02-07-2013, 08:48 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 09:30 PM by PoliticalTiger.)
Post: #14
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
(02-05-2013 08:07 PM)janedrake Wrote:  Just watched Ed and the beginning of Rachel on MSNBC. Quite frankly, it seems to me that Ed has a simplistic view of the leaked CIA memo. Rachel, from the nature of her opening remarks, is eager to prove critics wrong that MSNBC is "just like Fox."

So, will 'the left' realize they're being played in time (the leaking of this memo just before the President's SOTU next week is surely no coincidence) or will we now be subject to a week of pontificating and outrage that plays quite neatly into Republican hands?

I'm getting tired of the phrase "Obama Killing Americans." They make it sound as if Obama is sitting there is some secret room directing drones at Americans, as if hundreds or thousands of Americans have been killed.

As far as I know, only one American has been killed, Anwar al-Awlaki, who joined al-Qaeda and had a prominent role in al-Qaeda. Well, excuse me, but I think if you join a terror organization and commit acts of war against your own country you've basically willingly given up your Constitutional rights.

The professional left is acting as if this is some big surprise. There's really nothing that new here. There's been controversy about the drone program for a long time now, nothing new there, and I think most people have already assumed that if there is some guy in Pakistan, who happens to be is an American, and he's plotting with sworn enemies of this country to attack this country, the President is going to say take him out.

But this "OBAMA IS KILLING AMERICANS" meme is way over the top, and while there are legitimate issues that need to be and should be discussed, using fear and hysterics is a right-wing tactic not worthy of our side.

"Understand that the more deeply you hold your ideals,
the more you are morally obligated to be pragmatic...Idealism without pragmatism
is just a way to flatter your ego." -Barney Frank
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02-08-2013, 01:26 AM
Post: #18
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
This thread is the most cogent I've read so far online.

There was one post elsewhere that laid it out pretty well legalistically, but the guy got drowned out by the tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth. As for Ed -- I am done listening to him; he is a blowhard and the teaser lines he tosses out are counterproductive to say the least.

The best argument for change and limitations I've heard so far today (on tv--can't remember who) had to do with the notion that the drone program should be under the aegis of the military, and not the CIA. The CIA keeps everything secret, and there is little chance for much meaningful oversight. The military gets much more oversight from Congress than the CIA does.

I was impressed by this line of thinking, and I think it is one that should be explored.

Aside from that, I personally think if we have a treasonous citizen who has publicly renounced their US citizenship and is training terrorist cells overseas, there is little reason for anyone whatsoever to complain if that person is targeted by our government. That person has thrown away their right to an ordinary criminal trial in an American court of law--and they have moved out of jurisdiction in any case.

The choices are stark: Send in the Army to find one person, and untold numbers of people will get killed and maimed. Try to get close with a single assassin. Do a raid like SEAL Team 6 did. Drop a big bomb. Send a drone.

Or you can just wait for the people they train to set IEDs on American soil. Or fly airplanes into buildings.

No matter what, there will be collateral damage -- that is, civilians/noncombatants will be maimed or killed. That, sadly, is the ugly distasteful nature of war. Al Quaeda has declared war on the US -- by both word and deed, they have done so. But they are not a country, nor are they an army, they are a loosely knit confederation that crosses all borders and finds safe harbor in a number of countries that claim to be US allies.

The people in this country who are carrying on about "innocent American citizens" and "on US soil" are self-deluded and I question their agenda. Yeah, I actually think that some members of the Left are going to give aid and comfort to the extreme Right and start yipping about impeachment.

What exactly do they propose the President and his administration do about this situation?

There are real issues that call for real discussion, like putting the drone program under the military where it can be subject to oversight, and reining in the American police departments who want to surveil us all night and day. But that conversation is not being conducted.

Thanks to all here who have weighed in.

Hekate

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever does. ~Margaret Mead~
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02-08-2013, 07:28 AM
Post: #19
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Thank you, Hekate, for weighing in -- well said. (And I agree -- everyone's thoughtful, reasoned feedback here has been very good reading.)
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02-14-2013, 05:29 AM
Post: #20
RE: Question: Is 'the left' now going to step in and help aid the GOP to 'impeach Obama?'
Good stuff, Hekate.

Recently heard former Sen. Bob Graham talking about alquaida and how we took our attention away from eliminating the group in Afghanistan while we wandered off to Iraq. Now what we have is many "McDonald's franchises" of AlQ doing business as small groups in lots of countries, instead of a centralized operation out of Afghanistan/Pakistan.

I think you'll hear a lot about drones from the Republican side because they're very dangerous to American citizens who depend on the huge, cost plus contracts of defense spending for their wealth. If you listen to discussions about Air Force fighter jets, you'll hear a lot about which ones aren't very useful, which series don't fly much because the repair cost is so great. Comparing the costs with that of operating drones has to be scary for a lot of people.

Better to come up with all kinds of questions about the drones and collateral damage.
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