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How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
12-17-2012, 07:52 AM
Post: #1
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
Quote:On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.

Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12...ide_a.html

“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”

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How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem #1 - NJMaverick - 12-17-2012, 07:52 AM
Thanks, NJMaverick #7 - suzie - 12-17-2012, 08:07 PM
Here are the actual numbers #16 - canetoad - 12-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Sandnsea #21 - canetoad - 12-18-2012, 05:28 PM
[*]
12-17-2012, 04:44 PM
Post: #2
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
I doubt anyone here will even read the article but I feel it's important to have all the numbers available.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847
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12-17-2012, 06:48 PM
Post: #4
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 04:44 PM)Republican Wrote:  I doubt anyone here will even read the article but I feel it's important to have all the numbers available.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847


I am a stickler for honest both outright and intellectually. The article you posted deliberately mixed and matched statistics in a very dishonest and deceptive manner. It was so bad that I had to find out what was the website and what was their mission. Much to my non-surprise is was a right wing website with a mission not to promote honest debate or get to the truth, but rather their mission was to spread right wing propaganda (apparently truth was an acceptable casualty).

“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”

Benjamin Franklin
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12-17-2012, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 12-17-2012 05:02 PM by Republican.)
Post: #3
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
This one offers a little more information. I'm trying to find something with more recent data, most seem to stop somewhere around '06 or earlier.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html
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12-17-2012, 08:58 PM
Post: #8
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 05:02 PM)Republican Wrote:  This one offers a little more information. I'm trying to find something with more recent data, most seem to stop somewhere around '06 or earlier.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

And will you read this?

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp
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12-17-2012, 06:56 PM
Post: #5
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
Link to show discrepancies in what I posted?
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12-17-2012, 07:58 PM
Post: #6
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 06:56 PM)Republican Wrote:  Link to show discrepancies in what I posted?
how can I get a job lying for a living?

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12-17-2012, 08:59 PM
Post: #9
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 07:58 PM)pappy Wrote:  
(12-17-2012 06:56 PM)Republican Wrote:  Link to show discrepancies in what I posted?
how can I get a job lying for a living?

I know, seriously. I could probably make their point better than they do because I simply wouldn't lie.
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12-17-2012, 08:07 PM
Post: #7
Thanks, NJMaverick
That article is really a help, especially with all the pro-gun lobby trolls who've suddenly appeared everywhere.
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12-17-2012, 09:26 PM
Post: #10
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 08:58 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  
(12-17-2012 05:02 PM)Republican Wrote:  This one offers a little more information. I'm trying to find something with more recent data, most seem to stop somewhere around '06 or earlier.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

And will you read this?

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

It seem that article is more concerned with data from who knows where making claims on the crime rates within the first couple of years of the ban. I concede that there is not enough information in that short of a time frame to make a conclusion.

The argument also made against the original pro gun article is that population growth is not taken in to effect. A quick google search shows that Australia's population has grown at a fairly steady rate of approx. 1.2% since the early '90s. This would show at best when combined with crime statistics that the weapons ban had no effect or if there was any, positive or negative, it is too small to show definitively with any statistical information.
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12-17-2012, 09:27 PM
Post: #11
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 08:59 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  
(12-17-2012 07:58 PM)pappy Wrote:  how can I get a job lying for a living?

I know, seriously. I could probably make their point better than they do because I simply wouldn't lie.

Just because you disagree doesn't make it a lie.
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12-18-2012, 05:17 AM
Post: #13
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-17-2012 09:27 PM)Republican Wrote:  
(12-17-2012 08:59 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  I know, seriously. I could probably make their point better than they do because I simply wouldn't lie.

Just because you disagree doesn't make it a lie.

Just because you say it doesn't make it the truth.

I see you think that the snopes article mentioned above is too focused on the numbers and yet they are the very numbers you chose to use in giving your argument. So the numbers when used in a misleading way (a lie) is OK but when used to refute your statement (lie) they are not OK.

Your just a heartless silly ass that comes out from under your little bridge to collect your manna in support of your masters that pay you to lie at their behest.

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12-18-2012, 12:53 AM
Post: #12
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
As pappy has said, "Don't feed the troll."
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12-18-2012, 05:18 AM
Post: #14
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 12:53 AM)suzie Wrote:  As pappy has said, "Don't feed the troll."

I should follow my own advice!Cool

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12-18-2012, 12:20 PM
Post: #15
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
Considering the US runs the spectrum on gun control from reasonable to almost impossible to own a gun lets just look at our own numbers. I use Texas because it's my home state and then the most talked about states considering their restrictive stance on gun control.

I started out omparing Texas to states like Cali and IL, then decided since DC has the strictest gun control laws in the country it should probably be thrown in to the mix and would presumably be the poster child for Gun Grabbers



Numbers are /100,000



Violent crimes

Tx 408.5. CA 411.1. IL 429.3 DC 1202.1



Murder(we all know guns cause murders right?)



Tx 4.4 CA. 4.8. IL 5.6. DC 17.5



Robbery



Tx 110.6. CA 144. IL157. DC. 662.3



All information gathered from http://www.disastercenter.com/crime



There are other statistics for different types if crime and Texas doesn't come in first on all of them. Our aggregated assault rate is pretty high but I don't see how this factors in to gun control because AA does not include the use of firearms. That would be assault with a deadly weapon by Texas law.
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12-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Post: #16
Here are the actual numbers
All Australian gun deaths, including homicide, self-harm and accident:

2008: 225
2007: 404
2006: 229
2003: 287
2002: 293
2001: 326
2000: 324
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
1984: 675
1983: 644
1982: 689
1981: 618
1980: 687
1979: 685

Homicides by firearm only:

2009: 30
2008: 19
2007: 25
2006: 29
2005: 40
2004: 32
2003: 54
2002: 45
2001: 47
2000: 57
1999: 50
1998: 57
1997: 79
1996: 104
1995: 67
1994: 76
1993: 64
1992: 96
1991: 84
1990: 79
1989: 80
1988: 123

Now, this is interesting: Comparison of number of gun homicides per 100,000 population.

USA
2009: 2.98
2008: 3.12
2007: 3.36
2006: 3.42
2005: 3.43
2004: 3.20
2003: 3.37
2002: 3.25
2001: 3.12
1999: 2.97
1998: 3.37
1993: 7.07

AUSTRALIA
2009: 0.1
2008: 0.09
2007: 0.12
2006: 0.14
2005: 0.19
2004: 0.21
2003: 0.27
2002: 0.23
2001: 0.24
2000: 0.30
1999: 0.26
1998: 0.30
1997: 0.43
1996: 0.57
1995: 0.37
1994: 0.43
1993: 0.36
1992: 0.55
1991: 0.49
1990: 0.46
1989: 0.48
1988: 0.74

Which means that in 2009 you were almost THIRTY TIMES more likely to be murdered by firearm in the USA.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/
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12-18-2012, 04:26 PM
Post: #17
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 04:13 PM)canetoad Wrote:  Which means that in 2009 you were almost THIRTY TIMES more likely to be murdered by firearm in the USA.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/

I am sure our poster that calls himself "Republican" will be able to explain why he knows Australia better than an Aussie.

Good to hear from you again canetoad. You post way too infrequently. Wave

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12-18-2012, 04:41 PM
Post: #18
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
Hey Pappy, good to see you too Wave Recently moved to a small town close to the beach and living very relaxed life!

That poster drank the cool aid handed out by the very, very small group of people who opposed the gun buyback in '97. They bent the figures to suit their purposes. Luckily, no one here takes them very seriously.

Republican is free to ask me any questions he/she likes about life in Oz. Better they hear it first hand.
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12-18-2012, 04:59 PM
Post: #19
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 04:41 PM)canetoad Wrote:  Hey Pappy, good to see you too Wave Recently moved to a small town close to the beach and living very relaxed life!

That poster drank the cool aid handed out by the very, very small group of people who opposed the gun buyback in '97. They bent the figures to suit their purposes. Luckily, no one here takes them very seriously.

Republican is free to ask me any questions he/she likes about life in Oz. Better they hear it first hand.

Was the buyback mandatory?
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12-18-2012, 05:28 PM
Post: #21
Sandnsea
[/quote]

Was the buyback mandatory?
[/quote]

Yes it was. As I've never had a gun I had no horse in the race and may be a little innacurate on details.

We never really had a hand gun culture in Oz. Even before the buyback I think only registered sporting pistol shooters could own a handgun.

The purpose of the buyback was not to take away the firearms of farmers and sporting shooters however they went through a much more stringent process to prove they had a genuine need for a gun. I believe all semi-automatic weapons were banned along with pump-action shotguns.

A 1% levy was added to federal income tax to finance the buyback and had very little opposition. I think anyone, who wished to surrender any kind of gun, whether it was semi-auto or not was compensated. I know my brother had an old hunting .22 rifle my Dad had given him and he rang me gleefully to say he got $400 for it!
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12-18-2012, 05:00 PM
Post: #20
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 04:41 PM)canetoad Wrote:  Hey Pappy, good to see you too Wave Recently moved to a small town close to the beach and living very relaxed life!

That poster drank the cool aid handed out by the very, very small group of people who opposed the gun buyback in '97. They bent the figures to suit their purposes. Luckily, no one here takes them very seriously.

Republican is free to ask me any questions he/she likes about life in Oz. Better they hear it first hand.

I'm betting he'll stick to platitudes and polemics and avoid facts or rationality. I'm not giving odds however.

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12-18-2012, 08:04 PM
Post: #22
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 04:13 PM)canetoad Wrote:  All Australian gun deaths, including homicide, self-harm and accident:

2008: 225
2007: 404
2006: 229
2003: 287
2002: 293
2001: 326
2000: 324
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
1984: 675
1983: 644
1982: 689
1981: 618
1980: 687
1979: 685

Homicides by firearm only:

2009: 30
2008: 19
2007: 25
2006: 29
2005: 40
2004: 32
2003: 54
2002: 45
2001: 47
2000: 57
1999: 50
1998: 57
1997: 79
1996: 104
1995: 67
1994: 76
1993: 64
1992: 96
1991: 84
1990: 79
1989: 80
1988: 123

Now, this is interesting: Comparison of number of gun homicides per 100,000 population.

USA
2009: 2.98
2008: 3.12
2007: 3.36
2006: 3.42
2005: 3.43
2004: 3.20
2003: 3.37
2002: 3.25
2001: 3.12
1999: 2.97
1998: 3.37
1993: 7.07

AUSTRALIA
2009: 0.1
2008: 0.09
2007: 0.12
2006: 0.14
2005: 0.19
2004: 0.21
2003: 0.27
2002: 0.23
2001: 0.24
2000: 0.30
1999: 0.26
1998: 0.30
1997: 0.43
1996: 0.57
1995: 0.37
1994: 0.43
1993: 0.36
1992: 0.55
1991: 0.49
1990: 0.46
1989: 0.48
1988: 0.74

Which means that in 2009 you were almost THIRTY TIMES more likely to be murdered by firearm in the USA.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Do you have any statistical information regarding total homicide rates?
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12-18-2012, 08:39 PM
Post: #24
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 08:04 PM)Republican Wrote:  Do you have any statistical information regarding total homicide rates?

You make me laugh. This is about guns. But because you are obviously a lazy sod who won't expend the effort to type a couple of words into Google, I have obliged and done it for you.

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

In future do your own research and don't expect people to run after you when you snap your fingers.
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12-18-2012, 08:08 PM
Post: #23
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 04:26 PM)pappy Wrote:  
(12-18-2012 04:13 PM)canetoad Wrote:  Which means that in 2009 you were almost THIRTY TIMES more likely to be murdered by firearm in the USA.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/

I am sure our poster that calls himself "Republican" will be able to explain why he knows Australia better than an Aussie.

Good to hear from you again canetoad. You post way too infrequently. Wave

I didn't claim to.

Would you care to explain why you fail to acknowledge the information I posted regarding our country which shows that states with strict gun control measures are no safer than Texas with it's basic restrictions.
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12-18-2012, 09:49 PM
Post: #25
How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
The reason the overall homicide rates matter is because if gun related homicides go down and the the overall rate stays the same you have accomplished nothing.

The reasons I asked if you had the info were 1: you said if I had any other questions feel free to ask, and 2: I would have been accused of lying if I had posted anything that didn't go along with the liberal agenda.

What you posted was no help to me because it doesn't show any yearly trends. What I have found on my own shows a slightly declining homicide rate which is on par with most other countries in its rate of decline including those in the US so I don't see how it could be attributed to taking all the guns from your fellow citizens.

Maybe some day we can get to the root of the problems behind these tragedies which stem from lack of enforcement of current laws, kids growing up in broken homes, and kids getting tormented in school until they snap. The guy for. This most descent tragedy obviously had major psychological problems, you would have to in order to do what he did. There was a failure if those around him to make sure he got the treatment he needed. While you scratch, claw, an chip away at the rights of law abiding citizens the underlying causes will still be there. These tragedies will still happen with the only difference will be a new weapon being used.

Hopefully someone will start working on the real problems before some kid drives a truck load of fertilizer and diesel fuel through the front doors. You can blame objects all you want and claim they make it to easy but in the end someone who plans on killing for the sake of killing will come up with a way to do it.

I hope that if any of you are ever in a life or death situation someone will be there to save you, I doubt any of you would tell a CHL holder to take there evil gun and leave because violence is bad and the rapist will probably let you live.

I'll leave you alone now so you can feel good about setting me straight and talk about how my fact based numbers and US crime rates (which you never addressed) were nothing but lies.

It makes me said to see that half of this countries population would give up so much freedom so that the government can take care of them. Something that the government can only do by controlling you. I guess I have much more faith in people. I have faith that we all are capable of doing great things for their fellow man if only our children were not being taught in school to be submissive to all opposition. They can't even stand up to a bully without the police being called and tickets being written.

Whatever, enjoy your lives a part of the flock. I will continue to raise my children as true American who can be relied on to defend others who need it. Not slink away when someone needs the and blame someone else for their troubles.
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12-19-2012, 01:10 AM
Post: #28
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 09:49 PM)Republican Wrote:  It makes me said to see that half of this countries population would give up so much freedom so that the government can take care of them.

I don't need a semi-auto to be free. The assault weapon ban dealt with 19 guns. Over 600 guns were still available to protect yourself.

It makes me sad that half the countries population refuses to act in a manner that makes the entire country safe. You aren't teaching your children to defend anybody. Your teaching them that violence is the only answer.
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12-19-2012, 05:19 AM
Post: #29
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-18-2012 09:49 PM)Republican Wrote:  The reason the overall homicide rates matter is because if gun related homicides go down and the the overall rate stays the same you have accomplished nothing.

The reasons I asked if you had the info were 1: you said if I had any other questions feel free to ask, and 2: I would have been accused of lying if I had posted anything that didn't go along with the liberal agenda.

What you posted was no help to me because it doesn't show any yearly trends. What I have found on my own shows a slightly declining homicide rate which is on par with most other countries in its rate of decline including those in the US so I don't see how it could be attributed to taking all the guns from your fellow citizens.

Maybe some day we can get to the root of the problems behind these tragedies which stem from lack of enforcement of current laws, kids growing up in broken homes, and kids getting tormented in school until they snap. The guy for. This most descent tragedy obviously had major psychological problems, you would have to in order to do what he did. There was a failure if those around him to make sure he got the treatment he needed. While you scratch, claw, an chip away at the rights of law abiding citizens the underlying causes will still be there. These tragedies will still happen with the only difference will be a new weapon being used.

Hopefully someone will start working on the real problems before some kid drives a truck load of fertilizer and diesel fuel through the front doors. You can blame objects all you want and claim they make it to easy but in the end someone who plans on killing for the sake of killing will come up with a way to do it.

I hope that if any of you are ever in a life or death situation someone will be there to save you, I doubt any of you would tell a CHL holder to take there evil gun and leave because violence is bad and the rapist will probably let you live.

I'll leave you alone now so you can feel good about setting me straight and talk about how my fact based numbers and US crime rates (which you never addressed) were nothing but lies.

It makes me said to see that half of this countries population would give up so much freedom so that the government can take care of them. Something that the government can only do by controlling you. I guess I have much more faith in people. I have faith that we all are capable of doing great things for their fellow man if only our children were not being taught in school to be submissive to all opposition. They can't even stand up to a bully without the police being called and tickets being written.

Whatever, enjoy your lives a part of the flock. I will continue to raise my children as true American who can be relied on to defend others who need it. Not slink away when someone needs the and blame someone else for their troubles.

I am really impressed by your amazing ability to change the subject and think no one would notice. YOU posted phony and outdated Australian data to support your stupid conclusions and then it is refuted by actual facts from an actual Australian with more recent statistics but how do you respond? You change the subject and refuse to defend or argue about the data used to support your conclusion.

Your first tack was to demand more data which is then provided. Shit, your little selfish mind responds, I better go to plan "B".

Plan "B": Look over here at this other bright shiny object I have. Let's talk about this.

Face it "Republican", your an idiot and with 20th century marginal ideas in a 21st century world that is going to quickly leave you behind.

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12-18-2012, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 12-18-2012 10:48 PM by canetoad.)
Post: #26
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
Another thing that makes me laugh is the arrogance of Americans who think they are the only free country in the world.

I have the freedom to not be paranoid enough to carry a gun for self defence. It's simple. You made it, you live with it.

Your comments show not much in the way or original thought. Spouting partisan internet guff is not a subsitute for careful and intellectual analysis.

I appreciate your concern for the number of gun tragedies in the USA. It's a shame you don't have the intestinal fortutude to do something positive about it.

Australia is proof that its citizens don't need guns. So is most of Europe. Cling to your reactionary, selfish ways, I couldn't give a flying fuck. And if you are so keen on the second amendment, arm yourself with a flintlock musket and see how THAT goes for you.

You seem quite young, thus your embryonic arguments. Did someone tell you that to join an openly left-wing site with the nick Republican was a good idea? If you are here to gun-evangelize, you are wasting your time. If you are here to re-hash old, discredited, internet rubbish - well, we've seen it all before.

On the topic of nut-jobs getting guns; have you had a good look around the internet lately? Half of the net users are angry nutters. They are like that in real life too, only they want to avoid getting punched in the face by someone angrier than them.

You have a good, long, hard look at the kind of society that you want to see; one where everyone is armed as a prevention of getting killed. Does that not seem a little twisted and violent? You don't think the fear and paranoia is affecting your thinking making you more reactive, defensive and edgy?

Now, instead of quoting dodgy figures, write me a reply from your heart. Tell me your real gut feelings about guns; your fears, the rewards of an armed country. Prove to me that you can do more than spout right-wing propaganda.
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12-19-2012, 12:50 AM
Post: #27
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
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12-19-2012, 07:09 AM
Post: #30
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
Pappy, I especially liked the unwillingness to discuss the comparison between Australia and the U.S. and to try to change that to Texas and D.C.

I've lived in D.C. and in Virginia, where one can buy all kinds of weapons one wants at gun shows. Unless there's been some major changes, it's far easier to get to a gun show in Virginia than across town in Dallas or Houston.
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12-19-2012, 07:54 AM
Post: #31
RE: How Australia fixed it gun massacre problem
(12-19-2012 07:09 AM)suzie Wrote:  Pappy, I especially liked the unwillingness to discuss the comparison between Australia and the U.S. and to try to change that to Texas and D.C.

I've lived in D.C. and in Virginia, where one can buy all kinds of weapons one wants at gun shows. Unless there's been some major changes, it's far easier to get to a gun show in Virginia than across town in Dallas or Houston.

This "Republican" is not a thoughtful person. He is armed with misleading talking points provided for him by his masters at the NRA and the RNC.

As far as I am concerned this twerp and others that say "shut up" your being disrespectful to the memory of the dead are themselves heartless bastards afraid to look in the mirror at their own disrespectful behavior and lack of compassion.

You here me Mr. "Republican", your a heartless bastard. Go to hell.

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