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**Brewman_Jax** · 11-05-2012, 06:24 AM

http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/wh...uthern-men

From the article:

Quote:Ever since Neil Young sang about him, the white Southern man has been the symbol for all that is wrong with America to urban lefties. He is a redneck. A gun-toting, rebel flag-waving racist whose sinister activities wreak far more havoc on the country than, say, the wily Wall Street financier. If you can’t hate the white Southern man, who can you hate?

I grew up with white Southern men. Some of them hard-core Republicans. They have been my classmates. My neighbors. I’m related to lots of them. Having been raised in North Carolina and attended the University of Georgia, it’s impossible for me to see them as strangers. And while they can irritate me no end when they say and do dumb things, I cringe when San Franciscans like Mark Morford wax elitist and paint them as a monolithic band of aliens whose intolerance is only matched by their ignorance.

I’m from a middle class background, a product of the liberal enclave of Raleigh, NC. But since I went to public schools, I often found myself hanging out with kids whose lives didn’t look like mine. When I was 15, I remember attending a Harley Davidson picnic with my friend Roxanne way out in a rural field that we accessed in her boyfriend’s pickup truck. I was a little fearful -- these were supposed to be the rednecks the Morfords of the world had warned me about. But I got a surprise. The manners of these working class guys were largely superior to those of the frat boys who groped my friends at Duke University parties. They liked Reagan, and baseball, and Creedence Clearwater Revival. They didn't have horns; most of them were gentle and generous. They called me “Cover Girl” because of my fresh-scrubbed appearance and seemed bent on treating me as an ambassador from another world. There was honor at stake; they didn’t want me to go back home and tell my friends about how rough they all were. The more conservative Southern men have a thing about honor and self-respect . If they see that you're not talking down to them, they will want to have your esteem, and show you their best selves, which are often hospitable and kind. If you can't, well, that's a different story. You're likely to get the dark side.

Conservative Southern white men have a thing about the place they call home, too. I remember riding around with the Republican stepfather of an old boyfriend, who showed me the astonishingly beautiful fields and woods of his South Carolina farm. “I love this land,” he said, getting choked up. “I know every sound the birds make.” (He proved this by giving an eerily accurate rendition of a wild turkey’s gobble). Though he was dyed-in-the-wool GOP, he had a strong instinct for conservation, and I could find common ground with him the need to protect the environment. That’s what you do in the South if you grow up a liberal and don’t want to walk around being pissed off every minute of the day. You try to see if there’s something you might agree on with folks who don’t share your politics. Some humanity that joins you. Usually there is.

...

The divide has been there, the GOP has done an excellent job at exacerbating it.

**Willinois** · 11-05-2012, 08:33 AM

Running John Kerry while liberals across the country made condescending jokes about Bush being from the South was not helpful. Lost lots of votes and made it easier for Republicans.

There are reasons why running someone from the South or Midwest who has campaigned in rural areas is an advantage in Presidential races. It describes the last five Democratic Presidents. This article gets to part of the reason why.

What the writer forgets is that Obama won two Southern states after Kerry couldn't, partly by doing well with white southern voters. He's a smart, effective campaigner. It's also up to the progressive movement to organizer in rural areas, not any one candidate for President.

**sandnsea** · 11-05-2012, 09:17 AM

(11-05-2012 08:33 AM)Willinois Wrote: Running John Kerry while liberals across the country made condescending jokes about Bush being from the South was not helpful. Lost lots of votes and made it easier for Republicans.

There are reasons why running someone from the South or Midwest who has campaigned in rural areas is an advantage in Presidential races. It describes the last five Democratic Presidents. This article gets to part of the reason why.

What the writer forgets is that Obama won two Southern states after Kerry couldn't, partly by doing well with white southern voters. He's a smart, effective campaigner. It's also up to the progressive movement to organizer in rural areas, not any one candidate for President.

Oh excuse me, check out the states Obama didn't win. More Democrats voted for John Kerry than they did Obama. Fact. They're voting for Mitt Romney, who actually *is* everything they said they hated in John Kerry, who wasn't any of those things to begin with.

Conservative southern men? My family is full of them. My brother-in-law is a drafting engineer, my sister was an Alltel exec for decades. Obviously I know they don't drool in their grits every morning. But they don't want to change. Hating liberals is a past-time and it is cover for hating minorities, no matter what they say to your face. When you tell your child "we don't marry them", that says it all. My niece grew up in Arkansas and has no black friends... and she's a liberal! Don't blame John Kerry for the problems of the south and other red states.

**Willinois** · 11-05-2012, 04:01 PM

(11-05-2012 09:17 AM)sandnsea Wrote: They're voting for Mitt Romney, who actually *is* everything they said they hated in John Kerry, who wasn't any of those things to begin with.

That's one of the reasons Romney has an enthusiasm problem with his base. Bush was smart to act like a hick sometimes. It kept him from being pegged as a Connecticut native from one of the richest and most elite families in America.

You're right that most conservative southern men will never change, but that doesn't describe all white men in the south.
Of course I'm not blaming Kerry for problems in the south, but we should admit that some candidates have more national appeal than others.

**sandnsea** · 11-06-2012, 11:38 AM

(11-05-2012 04:01 PM)Willinois Wrote: That's one of the reasons Romney has an enthusiasm problem with his base. Bush was smart to act like a hick sometimes. It kept him from being pegged as a Connecticut native from one of the richest and most elite families in America.

You're right that most conservative southern men will never change, but that doesn't describe all white men in the south.
Of course I'm not blaming Kerry for problems in the south, but we should admit that some candidates have more national appeal than others.

"but we should admit that some candidates have more national appeal than others."

Again, They're voting for Mitt Romney, who actually *is* everything they said they hated in John Kerry. They *are* voting for Mitt Romney. The same people who supposedly hate rich wishy-washy northerners with weird religious beliefs - *are* voting for Mitt Romney.

None of this crap about why they won't vote for a national Democrat is true. There isn't anything specific. It's a belief system, as strong as their religion. God & Country as they see it, and they see it as the Republican Party. THE END.

**Willinois** · 11-07-2012, 01:50 AM

(11-06-2012 11:38 AM)sandnsea Wrote: Again, They're voting for Mitt Romney, who actually *is* everything they said they hated in John Kerry. They *are* voting for Mitt Romney.

And again, Mitt Romney just did worse in the South than Bush did, and Obama got a lot of white Southern votes today.

**jaxx** · 11-05-2012, 09:30 AM

To me that read like a lot of excuses. That war was over in 1865, not yesterday. As long as the GOP push the buttons nothing will change. It's the clinging to their religion and their guns and their bitterness....and liking it.

**cannae1** · 11-05-2012, 09:48 AM

I come from an old SC family. My parents ( my father's family was poor white; my mother's grandfather was a step up - a boot maker). They went North. He went North because he wanted advancement and SC was a closed society. He disapproved of Jim Crow as well.

The Southern white does not like change; and has many of the old conservative values of an ordered and orderly society. Not all of them.
Most do appreciate civility and politeness. More so than many Northerners.

There was a strain of (rural) populism, exemplified by politicians such as: William Jennings Bryan; Pitchfork Ben Tillman; Huey Long. George Wallace was, in some ways, in that strain. It has pretty quiet since Wallace.

The South needs another Huey Long.

**janedrake** · 11-05-2012, 09:55 AM

The author of this OP has some thick, rose-colored glasses on.

**Brewman_Jax** · 11-05-2012, 10:55 AM

A better question for the author is why can't these people live in the 21st Century and why do they continually vote against their own interests? Just to have an underclass of "those people" they can be better than and blame all of their problems on? Why can't they rage against the Top 1% that caused most of the trouble?

**Willinois** · (This post was last modified: 11-05-2012 04:01 PM by Willinois.)

(11-05-2012 10:55 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote: A better question for the author is why can't these people live in the 21st Century and why do they continually vote against their own interests? Just to have an underclass of "those people" they can be better than and blame all of their problems on? Why can't they rage against the Top 1% that caused most of the trouble?

Where would someone in the south today hear that message about raging against the 1%? From AM talk radio? From the conservative Democrats running in their area? The local newspaper or TV station with a conservative bias?

They wouldn't hear it at all. So why would they respond to it? That's the strongest point in the article. No one is making the appeal.

**Brewman_Jax** · 11-05-2012, 04:52 PM

(11-05-2012 03:53 PM)Willinois Wrote:
(11-05-2012 10:55 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote: A better question for the author is why can't these people live in the 21st Century and why do they continually vote against their own interests? Just to have an underclass of "those people" they can be better than and blame all of their problems on? Why can't they rage against the Top 1% that caused most of the trouble?

Where would someone in the south today hear that message about raging against the 1%? From AM talk radio? From the conservative Democrats running in their area? The local newspaper or TV station with a conservative bias?

They wouldn't hear it at all. So why would they respond to it? That's the strongest point in the article. No one is making the appeal.

MSNBC and cable news networks (other than FOX) are available.

**Willinois** · 11-07-2012, 01:53 AM

(11-05-2012 04:52 PM)Brewman_Jax Wrote:
(11-05-2012 03:53 PM)Willinois Wrote: Where would someone in the south today hear that message about raging against the 1%? From AM talk radio? From the conservative Democrats running in their area? The local newspaper or TV station with a conservative bias?

They wouldn't hear it at all. So why would they respond to it? That's the strongest point in the article. No one is making the appeal.

MSNBC and cable news networks (other than FOX) are available.

So a few hours of programming on one network that only became liberal a few years ago. That's not going to do much.

**sandnsea** · 11-05-2012, 07:35 PM

(11-05-2012 03:53 PM)Willinois Wrote: Where would someone in the south today hear that message about raging against the 1%? From AM talk radio? From the conservative Democrats running in their area? The local newspaper or TV station with a conservative bias?

They wouldn't hear it at all. So why would they respond to it? That's the strongest point in the article. No one is making the appeal.

That's not true. There are liberals in the south. Somehow my brother, who grew up in Arkansas since he was 12, managed to turn out very liberal and is a Buddhist. He's a car mechanic and auto body repairman.

Look at West Virginia. The exact same coal mining union men who voted for Bill and then voted for Hilary - refuse to vote for Obama.

Come on. They know. They don't care. I can't say that enough. They Do Not Care.

In 2004 it was all "Cut Taxes and Kill Terrorists". Well guess who did that? And they *still* don't care.

They want to be racists and until every single Democrat gets that through their head, we're going to keep banging our heads against the wall trying to appeal to them.

It's like being the spouse of an addict. You have to move on with what's right and they will either want to join you and change... or go their own way.

**Willinois** · 11-07-2012, 02:04 AM

(11-05-2012 07:35 PM)sandnsea Wrote:
(11-05-2012 03:53 PM)Willinois Wrote: Where would someone in the south today hear that message about raging against the 1%? From AM talk radio? From the conservative Democrats running in their area? The local newspaper or TV station with a conservative bias?

They wouldn't hear it at all. So why would they respond to it? That's the strongest point in the article. No one is making the appeal.

That's not true. There are liberals in the south. Somehow my brother, who grew up in Arkansas since he was 12, managed to turn out very liberal and is a Buddhist. He's a car mechanic and auto body repairman.

Look at West Virginia. The exact same coal mining union men who voted for Bill and then voted for Hilary - refuse to vote for Obama.

Come on. They know. They don't care. I can't say that enough. They Do Not Care.

In 2004 it was all "Cut Taxes and Kill Terrorists". Well guess who did that? And they *still* don't care.

They want to be racists and until every single Democrat gets that through their head, we're going to keep banging our heads against the wall trying to appeal to them.

It's like being the spouse of an addict. You have to move on with what's right and they will either want to join you and change... or go their own way.

I never claimed there were no liberals in the South, so I'm not sure what I typed that you're arguing is untrue. The problem is that liberals are in small enclaves and their message is rarely heard.

I'm also a little confused that you went from writing that there are liberals in the south to calling them all racists. I know racism is a problem in West Virginia but a lot of it really does have to do with the politics of coal.

**72ptheriot** · 11-05-2012, 07:53 PM

Southern white man here. I could tell what bothers me about this party but y'all don't care. I love my party but would like to see some changes but again y'all don't care. Oh by the way I'm not racist. I love how y'all stereotype. And I love the y'all. Lol

**sandnsea** · 11-05-2012, 08:06 PM

(11-05-2012 07:53 PM)72ptheriot Wrote: Southern white man here. I could tell what bothers me about this party but y'all don't care. I love my party but would like to see some changes but again y'all don't care. Oh by the way I'm not racist. I love how y'all stereotype. And I love the y'all. Lol

Based on your posts thus far, we know what bothers you about this party.

1. All the liberals in it.
2. All the lies about those liberals that you choose to believe.

**Brewman_Jax** · 11-05-2012, 08:20 PM

(11-05-2012 07:53 PM)72ptheriot Wrote: Southern white man here. I could tell what bothers me about this party but y'all don't care. I love my party but would like to see some changes but again y'all don't care. Oh by the way I'm not racist. I love how y'all stereotype. And I love the y'all. Lol

We know you love your party, but the name of the website is still Democrats for Progress. You're in the wrong place.

**72ptheriot** · (This post was last modified: 11-05-2012 10:10 PM by 72ptheriot.)

Anti false war, tax the rich making around $300,000.00 , go after the wall street criminals , fight lobbyist , rights for all citizens ,pro women right to choose, a carbon tax , money isn't free speech, corporations aren't people , pro occupy , I want to see more advancement in green energies funded by the gov and private , free and open Internet, I believe in the right to peaceful protest , anti big brother watching everything , anti GMO , reduce the military budget and spend here on roads etc. , do something to lower the cost for kids to go to college , I am such a right wing southern white racist, whatever. Just because I question some things that Obama has done I'm right wing and racist. Sorry if I think ALL PEOPLE have rights NDAA changes that and he told the people he would not sign it He did sign it and fought it in the courts to keep it. Again sorry for thinking people have rights. I'm so right wing

**suzie** · 11-06-2012, 06:19 AM

You give voice to all the right wing southern racist talking points. Then, when confronted, you rattle off a bunch of Democratic issues and say, "I believe."

I'm a liberal Southerner, married to a liberal southern white male, whose friends are mostly liberal southerners. None of us repeat the right wing talking points in the way that you do.

Oh, and I use y'all in my every day speech all the time. But, I don't throw it in to emphasize my fake "southernness" on these forums. Like Brewman says, you're in the wrong place.

**cannae1** · 11-06-2012, 06:29 AM

The Southern Conservatives are not going to change any time soon. They will not change until force of circumstance forces change. This pov has been alive and well virtually from the start, owing to how the colonies began and how they were populated.
It has been the Solid South from about 1828. The National Democrats had to live with them; now, the GOP has to live with them. The South is the geographic base of the GOP.

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 06:48 AM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gyq8UNcOg7c

**Brewman_Jax** · 11-06-2012, 07:05 AM

(11-06-2012 06:48 AM)72ptheriot Wrote: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gyq8UNcOg7c

What's your point? Shrug

**72ptheriot** · (This post was last modified: 11-06-2012 07:20 AM by 72ptheriot.)

Thom Hartmann must be right wing. Love his show and he has spoken on this several times. Headed to the voting station now.

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 07:42 AM

I agree with 90 percent of everything y'all say but the ten percent makes me a right winger. Oh I would put my southerness up against yours and your husband combined. Not sure to even do this maybe a crawfish eating contest or oyster shucking or mosquito bites.

**pappy** · (This post was last modified: 11-06-2012 07:45 AM by pappy.)

I have resisted posting on this thread for the obvious reason that as a white northerner that has never been south of Athens, Ohio i have no dog in this fight nor any real world knowledge of the southern white male experience. But I decided to jump in just to add something that I really haven't seen mentioned thus far.

Truth and facts are not really fungible. As long as you speak the truth and use the facts to back up your arguments then the ethnic or regional makeup of the audience shouldn't really matter.

The entire "Southern Strategy" is based on the lie of a racist ideology. If you keep putting forth the truth that the only race that matters is the human race and that we must all work together or we fall separately then eventually that truth will win over the majority of people in any region of the country.

It boils down to truth and facts. No tailoring of the message can convince a closed mind or hardened heart of the truth and the facts. Fortunately there are a growing number of people in all regions whose hearts and minds are not closed and will accept the facts when presented honestly.

That's my 2 cents, now I'll back out of this discussion again and let the bashing begin.

pappy

PS Hiding

**suzie** · 11-06-2012, 07:49 AM

72ptheriot, I'm married to a southern white male who can talk to the redneck southerners, who is comfortable with them, who understands them, but who also finds their racism intolerable.

I agree with some points in the article. And on another day than this, might be interested in speaking of them.

But, in no way do I believe that you are either a liberal southern white male or one with common cause with the current Democratic Party. So your continued faux southern musings are just annoying.

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 08:42 AM

I think there is a problem with communication. Falsehoods are preached here. I know I here them and try to correct them but a couple of statements compared to a lifetime of brainwashing just won't cut it. From guns being taken away to churches having to pay for abortions. As long as Fox News pumps out lies they may never be change. If BP didn't change things not sure what will.

**Brewman_Jax** · 11-06-2012, 10:04 AM

(11-06-2012 08:42 AM)72ptheriot Wrote: I think there is a problem with communication. Falsehoods are preached here. I know I here them and try to correct them but a couple of statements compared to a lifetime of brainwashing just won't cut it. From guns being taken away to churches having to pay for abortions. As long as Fox News pumps out lies they may never be change. If BP didn't change things not sure what will.

The famous line from the movie Cool Hand Luke. You're right, there is a communication problem: Your disjointed phrases, inability to follow the topic, terrible comic timing, poor command of written English, and the gall to continually try to fool the regular posters of this board. The problem is you.

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 08:50 AM

Would a pic of my Obama sign in my yarn and a plate of beignets right under it change your mind? How about a pic of my donation confirmations and a swamp people t shirt. Sorry don't have the shirt. Can't stand the way they make us look. Please don't pick the beignet one I'm out of powdered sugar.

**suzie** · (This post was last modified: 11-06-2012 09:25 AM by suzie.)

The faux Louisiana references are even more annoying.

"Plate of beignets?"

Seriously?

There is probably a serious discussion to be had about the article, but not with a talking point spouting right winger and faux southerner like yourself.

BTW, had to listen to some right wingers repeating the Alabama Electricians Turned Away Non-Union story yesterday--the same one you trotted out here last week.

Yeah, you're a Democrat. Bless your heart.

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 11:02 AM

(11-06-2012 10:04 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote:
(11-06-2012 08:42 AM)72ptheriot Wrote: I think there is a problem with communication. Falsehoods are preached here. I know I here them and try to correct them but a couple of statements compared to a lifetime of brainwashing just won't cut it. From guns being taken away to churches having to pay for abortions. As long as Fox News pumps out lies they may never be change. If BP didn't change things not sure what will.

The famous line from the movie Cool Hand Luke. You're right, there is a communication problem: Your disjointed phrases, inability to follow the topic, terrible comic timing, poor command of written English, and the gall to continually try to fool the regular posters of this board. The problem is you.

You y'all question my southness. Im not trying to fool anyone. I don't need any of you to believe a damn thing. I have been nothing but nice to everyone. I just stated a couple of concerns that I was looking for enlightenment. The same thing I saw on the big picture on rt and a podcast I like called citizen radio. I found no help here and and no willingness to help.

**sandnsea** · 11-06-2012, 11:05 AM

(11-06-2012 11:02 AM)72ptheriot Wrote:
(11-06-2012 10:04 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote: The famous line from the movie Cool Hand Luke. You're right, there is a communication problem: Your disjointed phrases, inability to follow the topic, terrible comic timing, poor command of written English, and the gall to continually try to fool the regular posters of this board. The problem is you.

You y'all question my southness. Im not trying to fool anyone. I don't need any of you to believe a damn thing. I have been nothing but nice to everyone. I just stated a couple of concerns that I was looking for enlightenment. The same thing I saw on the big picture on rt and a podcast I like called citizen radio. I found no help here and and no willingness to help.

Your "southness"??

roflmao

**jaxx** · 11-06-2012, 11:25 AM

RT = Russian TV

Citizen Radio = (formerly Drunken Politics) is an internet radio show "for young people disillusioned with corporate media and a political system that doesn't speak to them."

PL's better known as the disenchanteds. Panic

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 11:38 AM

(11-06-2012 10:04 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote:
(11-06-2012 08:42 AM)72ptheriot Wrote: I think there is a problem with communication. Falsehoods are preached here. I know I here them and try to correct them but a couple of statements compared to a lifetime of brainwashing just won't cut it. From guns being taken away to churches having to pay for abortions. As long as Fox News pumps out lies they may never be change. If BP didn't change things not sure what will.

The famous line from the movie Cool Hand Luke. You're right, there is a communication problem: Your disjointed phrases, inability to follow the topic, terrible comic timing, poor command of written English, and the gall to continually try to fool the regular posters of this board. The problem is you.

Why am even trying to defend myself to any of you? Think what you want. Hail Romney that's what y'all want to hear. Whatever.

**72ptheriot** · 11-06-2012, 11:43 AM

(11-06-2012 10:04 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote:
(11-06-2012 08:42 AM)72ptheriot Wrote: I think there is a problem with communication. Falsehoods are preached here. I know I here them and try to correct them but a couple of statements compared to a lifetime of brainwashing just won't cut it. From guns being taken away to churches having to pay for abortions. As long as Fox News pumps out lies they may never be change. If BP didn't change things not sure what will.

The famous line from the movie Cool Hand Luke. You're right, there is a communication problem: Your disjointed phrases, inability to follow the topic, terrible comic timing, poor command of written English, and the gall to continually try to fool the regular posters of this board. The problem is you.

Why am even trying to defend myself to any of you? Think what you want. Hail Romney that's what y'all want to hear. Whatever.