Romney’s Mormon Problem: Mitt Romney and the weird and sinister beliefs of Mormonism

[There Is No Spoon]

Romney’s Mormon Problem
Mitt Romney and the weird and sinister beliefs of Mormonism.

By Christopher Hitchens|Posted Monday, Oct. 17, 2011, at 11:05 AM ET

I have no clear idea whether Pastor Robert Jeffress is correct in referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more colloquially known as the Mormons, as “a cult.” There do seem to be one or two points of similarity. The Mormons have a supreme leader, known as the prophet or the president, whose word is allegedly supreme. They can be ordered to turn upon and shun any members who show any signs of backsliding. They have distinctive little practices, such as the famous underwear, to mark them off from other mortals, and they are said to be highly disciplined and continent when it comes to sex, booze, nicotine, and coffee. Word is that the church can be harder to leave than it was to join. Hefty donations and tithes are apparently appreciated from the membership.

Whether this makes it a cult, or just another of the born-in-America Christian sects, I am not sure. In any case what interests me more is the weird and sinister belief system of the LDS, discussion of which it is currently hoping to inhibit by crying that criticism of Mormonism amounts to bigotry.

To give some examples. The founder of the church, one Joseph Smith, was a fraud and conjurer well known to the authorities of upstate New York. He claimed to have been shown some gold plates on which a new revelation was inscribed in no known language. He then qualified as the sole translator of this language. (The entire story is related in Fawn Brodie’s biography, No Man Knows My History.* It seems that we can add, to sausages and laws, churches as a phenomenon that is not pleasant to watch at the manufacturing stage. Edmund Wilson wrote that it was powerfully shocking to see Brodie as she exposed a religion that was a whole-cloth fabrication.) On his later forays into the chartless wilderness, there to play the role of Moses to his followers (who were permitted and even encouraged in plural marriage, so as to go forth and mass-produce little Mormons), Smith also announced that he wanted to be known as the Prophet Muhammad of North America, with the fearsome slogan: “Either al-Koran or the Sword.” He levied war against his fellow citizens, and against the federal government. One might have thought that this alone would raise some eyebrows down at the local Baptist Church. …

Saddling itself with some pro-slavery views at the time of the Civil War, and also with a “bible” of its own that referred to black people as a special but inferior creation, the Mormon Church did not admit black Americans to the priesthood until 1978, which is late enough—in point of the sincerity of the “revelation” they had to undergo—to cast serious doubt on the sincerity of their change of heart.

... http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p..._beli.html

[jaxx]

Interesting article. I don't think discussing religious sects is bigotry either. Without discussion there is no learning.

[Willinois]

TINS, having a serious discussion about the beliefs of a religion is not the same as pointing and laughing at someone's underwear even after Mormon's say they find it offensive. Calling it "magic underwear" is belittling, not a theological argument. You know the difference.

[There Is No Spoon]

(07-03-2012 11:02 AM)Willinois Wrote:  TINS, having a serious discussion about the beliefs of a religion is not the same as pointing and laughing at someone's underwear even after Mormon's say they find it offensive. Calling it "magic underwear" is belittling, not a theological argument. You know the difference.

I'm going to default to a comment I read on another blog:

Quote:333maxwell - 12:43 AM
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Mormons need to lighten up.. The whole nation has been making fun of Cher's silly underwear (and lack of it) for almost 5 decades, and she hasn't whined about it.

[Willinois]

(07-03-2012 11:06 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(07-03-2012 11:02 AM)Willinois Wrote:  TINS, having a serious discussion about the beliefs of a religion is not the same as pointing and laughing at someone's underwear even after Mormon's say they find it offensive. Calling it "magic underwear" is belittling, not a theological argument. You know the difference.

I'm going to default to a comment I read on another blog:

Quote:333maxwell - 12:43 AM
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Mormons need to lighten up.. The whole nation has been making fun of Cher's silly underwear (and lack of it) for almost 5 decades, and she hasn't whined about it.

Yeah, it's a joke just lighten up. Isn't that what Limbaugh says every time he's caught saying a racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted comment? I'm glad Obama's campaign has chosen not to go down that road.

[There Is No Spoon]

(07-03-2012 11:18 AM)Willinois Wrote:  

(07-03-2012 11:06 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  I'm going to default to a comment I read on another blog:

Yeah, it's a joke just lighten up. Isn't that what Limbaugh says every time he's caught saying a racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted comment? I'm glad Obama's campaign has chosen not to go down that road.

I am not expressing any sort of intolerance or hatred by making fun of "celestial underwear" - it just sounds cult-like and I feel perfectly in my right to point out that this is weird. Calling me a bigot over this lighthearted banter is a very serious charge and I do not take this lightly.

[Willinois]

(07-03-2012 12:05 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(07-03-2012 11:18 AM)Willinois Wrote:  Yeah, it's a joke just lighten up. Isn't that what Limbaugh says every time he's caught saying a racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted comment? I'm glad Obama's campaign has chosen not to go down that road.

I am not expressing any sort of intolerance or hatred by making fun of "celestial underwear" - it just sounds cult-like and I feel perfectly in my right to point out that this is weird. Calling me a bigot over this lighthearted banter is a very serious charge and I do not take this lightly.

As I wrote before, whether you find the term magic underwear offensive is irrelevant because you aren't Mormon. Calling it "magic" doesn't reflect Mormon belief. It's a belittling term that they find offensive. If you want to mock a religion by calling their beliefs "magic" and cult-like it's up to you. Bill Maher does it all the time. But, just be aware that if you mock someone's deeply held religious beliefs that they aren't going to think it's as lighthearted as you do.

Mormons probably are overly sensitive to criticism. But since this is the only religion to be violently driven outside United States borders after having their leader killed by a mob, I'd argue a little sensitivity is called for.

[There Is No Spoon]

To put things in perspective, I'm like the person below who just discovered this undergarment thing. Here is a thread that shows other people who think this is bizarre, while not in any way intending to sound bigoted (the middle person was raised a mormon and completely understands people's utter disbelief that this is a real thing): http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon013.htm

Another nevermo FASCINATED by magic undergarments!... Wrote:I tell you guys who grew up taking "undergarments" for granted- WE in the not-know find these items fetching indeed. [Here in Idaho]

A co-worker, who is Baptist but grew up here in zion, looked @ me all strange-like (she does that often) but this time it was because I happened to respond to a joke she made by saying, "That's almost as funny as magical mystery mormon underwear!"

The upshot- the woman had never HEARD of them, and she grew up right near Idaho Falls. She became immediately enthralled though- so much so that I am going to print out that page which shows the garments and share with her.
She had NO idea, and she is now in AWE (not in a "joy for joy" way, but rather in a "light just came on- so THAT explains it, too many layers tucked too tightly" sort of way.)

People, if the nevermo (never Mormon) fascination with mormon underwear seems disrespectful or bigoted to you, I am sorry (as probably are most nevermos who are equally fascinated), but the fact is- MORMONS DON'T ADMIT THAT THEY WEAR THESE THINGS TO OUTSIDERS- it falls under that "sacred not secret" category. It's not as if they are proudly displaying their faith-wear, they are HIDING it, and WEARING IT UNDER THEIR BRAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some wear them always- always always always, except when having sex or showering.

IT'S WEIRD to outsiders. And the fact that they keep them secret, I mean sacred, makes it weirder still.
It's no damn wonder to me why Jerry would want to don them and go about his day- just to see how it "is". I want to do the same, and it's really not out of any disrespect, it's out of utter and complete fascination.
It's not the same thing as a veiled Islamic face or a Catholic priest's robe- it's ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, UNDERWEAR, and it's supposed to protect its wearer from "the world".
WOW, so interesting.
And so clandestine.

And if my co-worker has any say in this- SHE wants to wear a pair too, because the idea of wearing a t-shirt under the bra seems inconceivable to us.

You guys who grew up accepting this as normal are too jaded, people like me, Jerry, my nevermo co-worker, we are like KIDS in our first ever candy store.
The fact that mormons keep their underwear "sacred" adds to the delight and intrigue.

Sorry if that offends, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I AM very interested. Interested enough to want to WEAR A PAIR MYSELF, and go about my day.

Quote:I seriously do understand it now. Hopefully, it's a sign of recovery. (?)

As I grew up, every adult I knew wore garmies. My aunties peed through a gaping slit in them. I saw my mother in them every day with bra and full slip on the outside, winter and summer. She put on a garter belt and nylons over them for church. Bunched up garmies in and around all of those other lady things are not a pretty sight!

I'm not even getting into the problems of periods or nursing mothers here.

I got in trouble once for not hanging garmies on the line behind the bedsheets to protect them from gentiles who may be passing our farm on the highway to Idaho.

I thought the kitchen was on fire a few times until I found my mom burning the "sacred symbols" in tin cans before she cut the underwear into dust cloths. I was slapped a time or two for letting them fall or drag on the floor when I did laundry as a child.

This was normal to me. What did I know?

Frankly, if I was a never-mormon who read the above paragraphs, I'd be gagging and choking in my glass of wine. Garmie behavior is not normal. That is wierd cult behavior!

It's taken years (since 1967) to see the fullness of the wierdness.

But TBM trolls and fellow recovering exmos:
I must tell you this is very strange! Mormons vaguely sense that fact. In truth, that is the reason they hide it. They hate being laughed at, being God's chosen an all.

Quote:Cheryl wrote-

I must tell you this is very strange! Mormons vaguely sense that fact. In truth, that is the reason they hide it. They hate being laughed at, being God's chosen an all.

I believe you've hit the nail squarely.
Mormon undergarments are perhaps the funniest part of the "culture", @ least to outsiders, and it could very well be that some mormons sense this, but are hell bent on defending their sacred wear anyhow, because it is all about faith and worthiness.

I SWEAR that to an outsider like me- the entire EVERYTHING about the LDS church seems like a joke. As if it is REALLY honestly a farce that they put on for outsiders to see how much we will believe.
I must admit, there are about a gazillion things about mormonism that when I first heard- I did NOT believe.
I saw that disbelief look on my co-worker's face when I said, "Yes, they wear sacred underwear, and they buy it @ special stores, and they wear it under their bras."
No, it's NOT true.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is very weird and hard to believe- no wonder some of us obsess on this stuff for so long, it takes some of us YEARS to actually fully believe that which we see/hear about the cult.
Yes, guys- it is that weird of a cult.
I think it out-weirds JWs by a million gazillion miles.

[Willinois]

What would be a lot more relevant is the beliefs many conservative Mormons have about foreign policy and America's role in the world. There were many Mormons, just like the Bush-loving evangelicals, who supported the war in Iraq because they thought it would open up the country to Christianity. There's a "manifest destiny" mindset about the religion. Some of Romney's speeches have overtones of American imperialism that are probably influenced by common Mormon beliefs. I doubt anyone could get Romney to talk honestly about that but it's a serious issue. It's why I think Romney would continue Bush's imperialist foreign policy.

[azmouse]

This was written almost 6 years ago, long before Willard had the nomination. Interesting.

Quote:But if he gets anywhere in the primaries, Romney's religion will become an issue with moderate and secular voters—and rightly so. Objecting to someone because of his religious beliefs is not the same thing as prejudice based on religious heritage, race, or gender. Not applying a religious test for public office, means that people of all faiths are allowed to run—not that views about God, creation, and the moral order are inadmissible for political debate. In George W. Bush's case, the public paid far too little attention to the role of religion in his thinking. Many voters failed to appreciate that while Bush's religious beliefs may be moderate Methodist ones, he was someone who relied on his faith immoderately, as an alternative to rational understanding of complex issues.


Nor is it chauvinistic to say that certain religious views should be deal breakers in and of themselves. There are millions of religious Americans who would never vote for an atheist for president, because they believe that faith is necessary to lead the country. Others, myself included, would not, under most imaginable circumstances, vote for a fanatic or fundamentalist—a Hassidic Jew who regards Rabbi Menachem Schneerson as the Messiah, a Christian literalist who thinks that the Earth is less than 7,000 years old, or a Scientologist who thinks it is haunted by the souls of space aliens sent by the evil lord Xenu. Such views are disqualifying because they're dogmatic, irrational, and absurd. By holding them, someone indicates a basic failure to think for himself or see the world as it is.


By the same token, I wouldn't vote for someone who truly believed in the founding whoppers of Mormonism. The LDS church holds that Joseph Smith, directed by the angel Moroni, unearthed a book of golden plates buried in a hillside in Western New York in 1827. The plates were inscribed in "reformed" Egyptian hieroglyphics—a nonexistent version of the ancient language that had yet to be decoded. If you don't know the story, it's worth spending some time with Fawn Brodie's wonderful biography No Man Knows My History. Smith was able to dictate his "translation" of the Book of Mormon first by looking through diamond-encrusted decoder glasses and then by burying his face in a hat with a brown rock at the bottom of it. He was an obvious con man. Romney has every right to believe in con men, but I want to know if he does, and if so, I don't want him running the country.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...igion.html

[Hekate]

In the case of Orthodox Jewish males, there is a special undergarment, the tzitzit -- referring to the knots and fringes of a 4 cornered garment worn so these knotted strings hang out under a regular shirt.

http://www.jewfaq.org/signs.htm
Tzitzit and Tallit

The Torah commands us to wear tzitzit (fringes) at the corners of our garments as a reminder of the mitzvot, kind of like the old technique of tying a string around your finger to remember something. .... There is a complex procedure for tying the knots of the tzitzit, filled with religious and numerological significance.

The mitzvah to wear tzitzit applies only to four-cornered garments, which were common in biblical times but are not common anymore. To fulfill this mitzvah, adult men wear a four-cornered shawl called a tallit during morning services, along with the tefillin. .....

Strictly observant Jewish men commonly wear a special four-cornered garment, similar to a poncho, called a tallit katan ("little tallit"), so that they will have the opportunity to fulfill this important mitzvah all day long. The tallit katan is worn under the shirt, with the tzitzit hanging out so they can be seen. If you've ever seen a Jewish man with strings hanging out of his clothing, this is probably what you were seeing.

At weekday morning services, men bind special leather pouches or boxes to the head and arm. The Shema also commands us to bind the words to our hands and between our eyes. We do this by "laying tefillin," that is, by binding to our arms and foreheads leather pouches containing scrolls of Torah passages.

Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair, often with a fashionable wig, but that still fulfills the commandment for women to cover their heads. Men also cover their heads with a small cap called a kippah or yarmulke.

Roman Catholic clergy, both male and female, wear special garments as well, and in times past nuns were easily distinguishable by their clothing, although that has been modified in recent decades.

The point of my sermonette is this: Many religious groups use clothing to distinguish themselves from the rest of society and to remind their members that they are special.

My ancestors were Roman Catholic, my husband is Jewish, and one branch of my father's family is Mormon. It's part of my ethos not to make fun of how people look or dress, but it also seems to me to be common courtesy in a diverse society.

Government in the US is supposed to be secular, but that does not mean atheist. This country has become very overtly religious in the public sphere in my lifetime, and personally I find that intrusive. In the case of many politicians, it's also hypocritical. I don't think President Obama is hypocritical for saying "God bless you and God bless the United States of America!" at the conclusion of every speech -- but he appeared to be uncomfortable with it at first, and I don't think he would have taken up the practice if it had not become customary and nearly required, much as wearing a lapel flag pin has become.

Be that as it may, my belief is that while people's religious beliefs are very interesting, they are only significant in public/civic life in relationship to what they DO. As far as I know, that's been American law and practice from the beginning, although there always have been many opposing currents of folks who would like a more theocratic society and government.

I only cared about Dubya's religious beliefs because of the way he surrounded himself with theocrats who wanted to change secular laws and practices to suit their own religion. Would Mitt bring in a largely Mormon administration that would be biased against the rest of us, or would he quietly continue his Sunday duties (much as Jimmy Carter did) and leave the rest of us alone while fulfilling his Constitutional oath of office? Would he throw his personal and financial support behind LDS schemes like getting Prop. 8 passed in California, or would he recuse himself and follow his oath of office? THESE are important questions.

My experience of my Mormon neighbors has been that they are sober, upright, hardworking, family-oriented people. These are not bad qualities. Some are not good people, but most are. I disagree with much of their theology, but not with most of their BEHAVIOR. Governor George Romney certainly had a good reputation as a public servant.

I would vote for a Mormon who was also a good Democrat. Not in my wildest dreams would I vote for George Romney's hollow son Mitt, no matter what kind of undies he wore.

[jaxx]

If I want to ask about some religious views, I'm going to. If this offends some, so be it. I will not be cowed down into silence by those who would deem what is, and isn't, allowed to be known about any religion.

[Treestar]

I think the White Horse prophecy is fair game. But I believe Mittwit already repudiated it. But it does hint the oath of office would be a false swearing, if a Mormon believes it.

JFK got put through the wringer and so did Obama. Mittwit shouldn't get a pass.

[There Is No Spoon]

Locking this as a continuation of the other thread that is now locked.