Hate on me if you must, but the recall shouldn't have happened...

[Drunken Irishman]

It was way too high risk to go ahead with it. Maybe it seemed like the Democrats had a chance when the recall started last year, but the whole thing has turned into an unmitigated mess. And people wonder why Obama stayed away from Wisconsin?

Yes, I know, Walker is an asshole and busting unions and wrecking lives - but we all knew this was an uphill battle from the start and instead of trying to marginalize him through attack ads and putting pressure on him during his final two years as governor, we've now embolden him even more and worse, we've undermined our own movement.

Yet another national embarrassment for Democrats. It's been a constant stream of them since '08's election - starting with Scott Brown and ending tonight. Hopefully Obama will be able to break the trend, but dammit, I am sick and fucking tired of all the negative shit the media spews and this just gives them more fodder to throw at us suggesting Obama is doomed in November.

I'm tired and I don't think the recall was worth what we're jeopardizing now. Maybe I'm wrong, but like I said, this was very high risk and we needed to be convinced we'd win. Maybe they were. But now we're left with another big blow and our side has taken a great deal since that wonderful night in Hyde Park.

What a crappy June this is turning out to be.

[jaxx]

If you're sick of the negative the media is spewing then quit spewing it.

"Yet another national embarrassment for Democrats."

No Sale.

[Drunken Irishman]

Of course it means shit nationally. But that won't be how it's played and you know it. You both can get on my ass for pointing out the media is going to have a hard on now with these results, but you also glossed over one important point - this now strengthens the Republicans, specifically those Republican governors who were worried about overstepping on unions and austerity.

Walker's winning reaffirms to them that it isn't a political toxic move to support that shit. So, now expect to see it in other states with the exact same results. That is why I'm complaining and worried. Sure, the losses since '08 have hurt and stung and sucked, but more than anything, we're now in a position where the Republicans once again claim momentum and we don't.

Will it impact Obama? No. Will it hurt Democrats in other states? It very well could. Walker was DOA in 2014 anyway. Now he's recharged and ready to go. Hopefully they can indict him, but damn if this wasn't a kick to the crotch. So, yeah, I've got to think had there not been a recall, and instead a push to just make him so unpopular that he was essentially a loser lameduck, we would be far better off today than we currently are.

Sue me.

[jaxx]

(06-05-2012 08:16 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  Of course it means shit nationally. But that won't be how it's played and you know it. You both can get on my ass for pointing out the media is going to have a hard on now with these results, but you also glossed over one important point - this now strengthens the Republicans, specifically those Republican governors who were worried about overstepping on unions and austerity.

Walker's winning reaffirms to them that it isn't a political toxic move to support that shit. So, now expect to see it in other states with the exact same results. That is why I'm complaining and worried. Sure, the losses since '08 have hurt and stung and sucked, but more than anything, we're now in a position where the Republicans once again claim momentum and we don't.

Will it impact Obama? No. Will it hurt Democrats in other states? It very well could. Walker was DOA in 2014 anyway. Now he's recharged and ready to go. Hopefully they can indict him, but damn if this wasn't a kick to the crotch. So, yeah, I've got to think had there not been a recall, and instead a push to just make him so unpopular that he was essentially a loser lameduck, we would be far better off today than we currently are.

Sue me.

Quit with the repub back slapping. They've got you running scared and you're giving up. That does not help Democrats.....it helps the repubs.

[Drunken Irishman]

(06-05-2012 08:30 PM)jaxx Wrote:  

(06-05-2012 08:16 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  Of course it means shit nationally. But that won't be how it's played and you know it. You both can get on my ass for pointing out the media is going to have a hard on now with these results, but you also glossed over one important point - this now strengthens the Republicans, specifically those Republican governors who were worried about overstepping on unions and austerity.

Walker's winning reaffirms to them that it isn't a political toxic move to support that shit. So, now expect to see it in other states with the exact same results. That is why I'm complaining and worried. Sure, the losses since '08 have hurt and stung and sucked, but more than anything, we're now in a position where the Republicans once again claim momentum and we don't.

Will it impact Obama? No. Will it hurt Democrats in other states? It very well could. Walker was DOA in 2014 anyway. Now he's recharged and ready to go. Hopefully they can indict him, but damn if this wasn't a kick to the crotch. So, yeah, I've got to think had there not been a recall, and instead a push to just make him so unpopular that he was essentially a loser lameduck, we would be far better off today than we currently are.

Sue me.

Quit with the repub back slapping. They've got you running scared and you're giving up. That does not help Democrats.....it helps the repubs.

I'm all ears. Let me hear why I should be optimistic about tonight's results? I get that you're not happy, and I'm not happy, but to me this whole recall effort was a gigantic failure for the Democrats. I truly believe Walker was a dead man walking in 2014 and he still might be, but maybe the appropriate approach would have been to hit him from the inside - discredit him to the point where his popularity was so awful he couldn't do anything. But now? I think he'll come out of this stronger and that will only help the Republican agenda.

Look, this isn't about Obama. I'm not worried about Obama. That will work itself out later. I am worried about Republicans not being held accountable for their actions and that's what it feels like tonight. Moreover, Walker just got away with it and what makes anyone think he'll pull back and shape up?

[jaxx]

(06-05-2012 08:34 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  

(06-05-2012 08:30 PM)jaxx Wrote:  Quit with the repub back slapping. They've got you running scared and you're giving up. That does not help Democrats.....it helps the repubs.

I'm all ears. Let me hear why I should be optimistic about tonight's results? I get that you're not happy, and I'm not happy, but to me this whole recall effort was a gigantic failure for the Democrats. I truly believe Walker was a dead man walking in 2014 and he still might be, but maybe the appropriate approach would have been to hit him from the inside - discredit him to the point where his popularity was so awful he couldn't do anything. But now? I think he'll come out of this stronger and that will only help the Republican agenda.

Look, this isn't about Obama. I'm not worried about Obama. That will work itself out later. I am worried about Republicans not being held accountable for their actions and that's what it feels like tonight. Moreover, Walker just got away with it and what makes anyone think he'll pull back and shape up?

" a gigantic failure for the Democrats." Really you don't need to help the repubs, they can buy what they want. Who, besides you, said Walker would shape up? That is bizarre.

[There Is No Spoon]

It was the people who did this, not the armchair quarterbacks like you who only care about the 'image" of the party.

Obama got 53 - 42% in exit polls, so this means shit nationally.

[KonaKane]

The GOP thanks you for all your demoralization efforts, DI. Well done. Here's a Tea Party medal for you. You know where you can pin it.

[Drunken Irishman]

I'll wear it with pride. I'm glad you guys don't think this was an embarrassing night for the Democrats. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But I look at this as just another failure for the party since our big election win in November '08. We have now lost every big-time election that could shape momentum one way or another the last three and a half years. Maybe I'm just tired of losing?

[jaxx]

(06-05-2012 08:59 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  I'll wear it with pride. I'm glad you guys don't think this was an embarrassing night for the Democrats. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But I look at this as just another failure for the party since our big election win in November '08. We have now lost every big-time election that could shape momentum one way or another the last three and a half years. Maybe I'm just tired of losing?

[KonaKane]

(06-05-2012 08:59 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  I'll wear it with pride. I'm glad you guys don't think this was an embarrassing night for the Democrats. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But I look at this as just another failure for the party since our big election win in November '08. We have now lost every big-time election that could shape momentum one way or another the last three and a half years. Maybe I'm just tired of losing?

You'll wear a Tea Party medal with pride? Why is this sounding less surprising to me by the day?

[kahuna]

(06-05-2012 09:24 PM)KonaKane Wrote:  

(06-05-2012 08:59 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  I'll wear it with pride. I'm glad you guys don't think this was an embarrassing night for the Democrats. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But I look at this as just another failure for the party since our big election win in November '08. We have now lost every big-time election that could shape momentum one way or another the last three and a half years. Maybe I'm just tired of losing?

You'll wear a Tea Party medal with pride? Why is this sounding less surprising to me by the day?

Way OTT. THAT is no surprise. There is no finer Democrat or member of DFP than our DI. Here's a hug for you, DI.

[There Is No Spoon]

It is an embarrassment, but we're not gloating about it. We suck it up and move on.

[Drunken Irishman]

Because I'm really a Republican, don't you know?

Gloating? Who the fuck is gloating? I'm venting. Yeesh.

I am sick and tired of losing. I am sick and tired of investing so much emotion into a cause and watching everything ripped from beneath me. Yeah, that makes me a whiner. Yeah, give me a goddamn crying towel. I don't give a fuck. What I do know is that I've watched as Republicans went from a supposed dying party in the early months of 2009 to a party that has sabotaged our economy, grown its ranks in the House, Senate, Governor's Mansion and State Legislature and now put up a serious candidate who's preaching the same crap that got us into this mess and he really has a fucking chance to win the White House. I'm sorry if my anger and emotional outbursts to what is happening is too negative or too harsh for you guys to handle. But when you sit and watch everything collapse in front of you, it's hard not to get discouraged and angry and sad.

Like I said, in early 2009 everything seemed to be going our way. We had huge majorities in the House & Senate. Arlen Specter turned his back on the GOP. Obama was riding high as the newly inaugurated president - life was starting to find some semblance of calm and then it all came crashing down. First, the tea-party emerged and then the healthcare fight was remarkably ugly and negative. To make matters worse, Scott Brown goes and wins Ted Kennedy's senate seat and a few months later, the Republican mid-term landslide even claims Obama's old senate seat. Now this. It is discouraging. It's painful. It's disappointing to concede that it's very possible this time next year Mitt Romney is our president.

But I'm whining. I'm negative. Oh well. It's not like we've had a slew of good news these past few months. You got obstructionist GOPers who just voted down equal pay for women. You've got Mitt Romney who's pushing a Scott Walker-like agenda nationally and what happened in Wisconsin? They just said, "eh" to the whole process. Yeah, forgive me for not being sunshine and lollipops right now. Like I said, I'm tired of losing.

[There Is No Spoon]

We're all feeling down DI - why must you broadcast your downess to the world - it's like rubbing salt in all of our wounds. You seem selfish when you do that - like you have some sort of "need" to control the dialog here. Use a little judgement prior to venting - we're all feeling crappy tonight about this. It's not like complaining will make things better.

[Drunken Irishman]

Because I have no one to vent to and I need to vent. I can't help it. I literally have no one to talk to on this because no one cares. If I don't get it out, I feel even worse inside. I'm sorry you have to put up with my shit, but I don't know what to tell you. I'm just tired. So, ignore my venting posts. I'm not always negative, but I'll admit I'm negative right now and have been for a while. I get very discouraged. And my hope is that venting helps.

[KonaKane]

(06-05-2012 10:30 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  I'm not always negative, but I'll admit I'm negative right now and have been for a while. I get very discouraged. And my hope is that venting helps.

Yes, you are almost always negative. Your gloom and doom drama is well known here, almost as much as your political polar mood swings. It's tedious.

[There Is No Spoon]

(06-05-2012 10:30 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  Because I have no one to vent to and I need to vent. I can't help it. I literally have no one to talk to on this because no one cares. If I don't get it out, I feel even worse inside. I'm sorry you have to put up with my shit, but I don't know what to tell you. I'm just tired. So, ignore my venting posts. I'm not always negative, but I'll admit I'm negative right now and have been for a while. I get very discouraged. And my hope is that venting helps.

You have my sympathy, I think many of us political junkies feel isolated when things turn out poorly, but I would appreciate it if you could think of spinning your anger to include a path forward instead of the end of the world. It's often darkest before the light. There has to be a bottom - even the cruelest Republicans in the country don't want to see it destroyed (well, except those waiting for the End Times - lol ).

[KonaKane]

DI if this is nothing but a shirt vs. skins game to you, and "winning/losing" is the only thing that matters, you're in the wrong game. Go play World of Warcraft or something more in line with your simplistic "Game On" view of what all this means.

You poor thing. You're sick of losing. Oh the drama. Even while our guy is still in the White House. Shall I send you some kleenex or can you order it online?

[Drunken Irishman]

Why don't you just ignore me, Kona? It's not hard. You see a thread by me, skip it. You're making this way more difficult than it should be. I mean, for someone so tired of my negative posts and my attitude and what not, you sure like to read my shit and then rail against it at every chance you get. That makes absolutely no sense to me because obviously you think I'm insufferable. So, just let it go. Ignore me. Ignore my posts and then you won't have to worry about how negative I am or bipolar I might seem.

Spoon, I'm sure tomorrow I'll feel a bit better. I just wish we could gain something.

[kahuna]

(06-05-2012 10:53 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  Why don't you just ignore me, Kona? It's not hard. You see a thread by me, skip it. You're making this way more difficult than it should be. I mean, for someone so tired of my negative posts and my attitude and what not, you sure like to read my shit and then rail against it at every chance you get. That makes absolutely no sense to me because obviously you think I'm insufferable. So, just let it go. Ignore me. Ignore my posts and then you won't have to worry about how negative I am or bipolar I might seem.

Spoon, I'm sure tomorrow I'll feel a bit better. I just wish we could gain something.

Just a few words on your behalf. You are NOT negative. Rarely do I see anything but positives in your posts. You tend to try to boost moral rather than tear it down. I see you as a positive influence.

Maybe your timing was off to discuss the effectiveness of the recall, but you have a right, especially in view of all the good and positive you bring to DFP, to do so without being roundly attacked and accused of being a grand-stander, which you are not. To quote the Bible, some people should pluck the beam from their own eyes.....

[azmouse]

(06-07-2012 05:48 AM)kahuna Wrote:  

(06-05-2012 10:53 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  Why don't you just ignore me, Kona? It's not hard. You see a thread by me, skip it. You're making this way more difficult than it should be. I mean, for someone so tired of my negative posts and my attitude and what not, you sure like to read my shit and then rail against it at every chance you get. That makes absolutely no sense to me because obviously you think I'm insufferable. So, just let it go. Ignore me. Ignore my posts and then you won't have to worry about how negative I am or bipolar I might seem.

Spoon, I'm sure tomorrow I'll feel a bit better. I just wish we could gain something.

Just a few words on your behalf. You are NOT negative. Rarely do I see anything but positives in your posts. You tend to try to boost moral rather than tear it down. I see you as a positive influence.

Maybe your timing was off to discuss the effectiveness of the recall, but you have a right, especially in view of all the good and positive you bring to DFP, to do so without being roundly attacked and accused of being a grand-stander, which you are not. To quote the Bible, some people should pluck the beam from their own eyes.....

I agree. ALL points of view from our members are welcomed here. We should support and assist each other. Sometimes we all need a shoulder to cry on or someone to talk us down from the ledge, as much as we need someone to celebrate with us when the news is good. And boy howdy, do I expect to celebrate with each and every one of you in November when Obama is re-elected.

[There Is No Spoon]

(06-07-2012 05:48 AM)kahuna Wrote:  

(06-05-2012 10:53 PM)Drunken Irishman Wrote:  Why don't you just ignore me, Kona? It's not hard. You see a thread by me, skip it. You're making this way more difficult than it should be. I mean, for someone so tired of my negative posts and my attitude and what not, you sure like to read my shit and then rail against it at every chance you get. That makes absolutely no sense to me because obviously you think I'm insufferable. So, just let it go. Ignore me. Ignore my posts and then you won't have to worry about how negative I am or bipolar I might seem.

Spoon, I'm sure tomorrow I'll feel a bit better. I just wish we could gain something.

Just a few words on your behalf. You are NOT negative. Rarely do I see anything but positives in your posts. You tend to try to boost moral rather than tear it down. I see you as a positive influence.

Maybe your timing was off to discuss the effectiveness of the recall, but you have a right, especially in view of all the good and positive you bring to DFP, to do so without being roundly attacked and accused of being a grand-stander, which you are not. To quote the Bible, some people should pluck the beam from their own eyes.....

Yes yes, 2 days later someone not involved in the heat of the moment can stroll along and say "why were people annoyed that you went on a negative tirade just 10 minutes after we learned that Walker had won"? C'mon.

[kahuna]

(06-07-2012 08:58 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(06-07-2012 05:48 AM)kahuna Wrote:  Just a few words on your behalf. You are NOT negative. Rarely do I see anything but positives in your posts. You tend to try to boost moral rather than tear it down. I see you as a positive influence.

Maybe your timing was off to discuss the effectiveness of the recall, but you have a right, especially in view of all the good and positive you bring to DFP, to do so without being roundly attacked and accused of being a grand-stander, which you are not. To quote the Bible, some people should pluck the beam from their own eyes.....

Yes yes, 2 days later someone not involved in the heat of the moment can stroll along and say "why were people annoyed that you went on a negative tirade just 10 minutes after we learned that Walker had won"? C'mon.

Yeah. I strolled in two days later because I felt it best to stay away from tv and message boards. That way, if I don't feel the range of emotions that people might express, I won't be tempted to discount their feelings or attack a cyber buddy who has always conducted himself with respect and has always shown the best of intentions.

[suzie]

The political consultants quoted in the WaPo indicate that you're correct about the recall being a mistake, DI.

That's probably not something most want to hear tonight.

[KonaKane]

The recall was far from simply a governor's issue. It was the opening battle of a new War for Labor Rights. We thought we had that one behind us for the last few decades. Well, here it is again.

We lost this battle. But there will be others, and hopefully, we'll prevail in those.

[sandnsea]

I wasn't a real fan of this recall either. It's currently appearing as if Walkerhas been involved in illegalities, but I don't think they existed when this started. I also agree that losing so many of these fights is not a good thing for the party or the Democratic platform or November. I'm starting to hear young people who were pro-Obama turn against him, and the married women poll really shocked me. That's an awful lot of voters to have at risk, voters we had last time. I was pretty confident a couple of weeks ago but I'm starting to think we could lose. People really do go with the herd and the herd is starting to run in the other direction.

[Willinois]

There are certainly things Obama could have done better but what the last three years has taught me is how completely disorganized and ineffective the modern American left is. It has been one missed opportunity after another while the cynics kick back and complain that Obama is supposed to do all the heavy lifting for them. When Obama got into office it was the freaking Tea Party that got organized instead of the left seizing an opportunity for real change. What a disaster.

[Drunken Irishman]

I'm still confident because I believe Obama is still well liked enough to win. But yeah, politics is often about momentum and let's be honest, the Democrats haven't had momentum since early 2009 on anything. That's not to say this is their lot in life, but really, we've had so many lopsided losses the last few years that there just isn't much to get things going, you know? The Republicans have been good at one thing and that's getting their party back on some path. Like I said once, in '09, the Republicans were dead. They had just gotten their butts handed to them in the presidential election & the Democrats expanded their leads in both the House & Senate. Specter jumping ship was supposed to be the last straw and somehow they came back from that.

I think in some instances, it was going to happen no matter what. Generally, the party out of power can grab hold of an important issue and ride it to popularity. The Democrats were good at that in the 70s and 80s, even though they didn't have the White House. But it was so rapid and we lost so much the last three years that it isn't hard to see why so many Democrats are dispirited and yes, you do get concerned that maybe it'll dampen enthusiasm come November. Republicans are fired up now. They got a huge victory. It's not the end of the road, or at least, it shouldn't be, but the risk with this recall was always the possibility of giving Walker and his cronies new life. Now, whether it was worth it, I can't say. We certainly put a lot of pressure on Walker and that was good - but I also think he was so damaged anyway, even before the recall, that he was becoming too toxic to do much of anything. Now? Who knows. He might look at this as a mandate and turn around and try to push an even more radical agenda.

But in the end, it is what it is. We just have to win in November. We also have to convince the American people that the Republicans are hurting our country and sabotaging our economy. Give Obama a Democratic House & Senate and we'll get things done again.

[Brewman_Jax]

Recalls are generally a long shot. Most voters feel that the politician, regardless of how one feels about that individual, should have their term. Now that being said, the recall election happened! The people were angry enough and made the recall happen. Walker had to stop everything and campaign to win the recall.

The damage was done. The rat bastards have been put on notice.

[Brewman_Jax]

(06-06-2012 04:46 AM)Brewman_Jax Wrote:  Recalls are generally a long shot. Most voters feel that the politician, regardless of how one feels about that individual, should have their term. Now that being said, the recall election happened! The people were angry enough and made the recall happen. Walker had to stop everything and campaign to win the recall.

The damage was done. The rat bastards have been put on notice.

The democrats have taken control of the state senate, which is no small consolation.

[Treestar]

The media is full of crap. Like Brown in MA, this election was not a regular election. It's one state. And that state polls for Obama. That state itself. It's all media bullshit. My local election for dog catcher was won by a Democrat. Bad news for the Republicans.

Really, it's ridiculous. This is not a normal election in normal time. Why should it be a bellwether of anything? It's not even a bellwether of the State of WI for the Presidential election coming up.

[Still a Democrat]

Brilliant hindsight.

[There Is No Spoon]

WRONG!!!



The Democrats won control of the Wisconsin Senate, so the recall effort WAS a success, even if it didn't meet our expectations.


I hope you feel a little better now.

[janedrake]

I understand your sentiment, DI, but I don't think it was a mistake for Wisconsin citizens to mobilize to express their displeasure with Walker's shenanigans. It's also good for rank-and-file Democrats nationally to understand how much Koch Bros' money can massage people's minds, and to buck up NOW to stand against that, and most importantly, to get out and vote. The silver lining in this recall is that it produced a Democratic state senate that Walker will have to negotiate with, and all of the recall efforts flipped a state that was completely GOP-controlled to one where the the governor will have to deal with a Democratically-controlled state senate where the Democrats regard him as a life form that's just slightly more advanced than a slug.

Scott Walker may have won the battle, but he's badly scarred. I expect absolutely nothing to get done in Wisconsin now, and after this first term is over, the same people who he managed to enrage, will be ready to vote against him again, and will have had another two years to gather forces. The embarrassment would have been to do nothing and to just play the victim. I'm proud of our Dems who at least "went to war."

[azmouse]

DI, I've gone through all the stages of grief over this loss. I was beginning to have hope during the day yesterday that Walker would really lose. It fell on me like a ton of bricks when the race was called so quickly.

But I realize that the Democrats in WI are fired up. I'm sure they'll spend a short time grieving that all their hard work didn't result in a successful recall. I also realize that Democrats all over the country now know what it will take to fight back against disastrous Republican rule.

Now is not the time to give up. It's what the Republicans want and I, for one, refuse to give the pricks the satisfaction of seeing me defeated.

[jaxx]

(06-06-2012 08:27 AM)azmouse Wrote:  DI, I've gone through all the stages of grief over this loss. I was beginning to have hope during the day yesterday that Walker would really lose. It fell on me like a ton of bricks when the race was called so quickly.

But I realize that the Democrats in WI are fired up. I'm sure they'll spend a short time grieving that all their hard work didn't result in a successful recall. I also realize that Democrats all over the country now know what it will take to fight back against disastrous Republican rule.

Now is not the time to give up. It's what the Republicans want and I, for one, refuse to give the pricks the satisfaction of seeing me defeated.

Well said mouse. I don't feel defeated either. What I see is a state that got out there and fought for what is right. They did regain control of the senate, which will tie Walker's hands. That ain't no small thing.

[MilesColtrane]

the national party leadership to tell the rank and file Democrats in Wisconsin to "shut up and sit down for the good of the party".

To their credit, they didn't do that.

I happen to think that the GOP and their corporate owners should be opposed in every way at every possible step.

You may see the recall election and subsequent defeat as tarnishing the Democratic brand, but I see it as a recruiting tool, i.e. "This is what Democrats do, we fight those who want to enslave us. Join us.".

[sandnsea]

(06-06-2012 10:01 AM)MilesColtrane Wrote:  the national party leadership to tell the rank and file Democrats in Wisconsin to "shut up and sit down for the good of the party".

To their credit, they didn't do that.

I happen to think that the GOP and their corporate owners should be opposed in every way at every possible step.

You may see the recall election and subsequent defeat as tarnishing the Democratic brand, but I see it as a recruiting tool, i.e. "This is what Democrats do, we fight those who want to enslave us. Join us.".

Usurping legal elections just because you don't like their policies is what happens in banana republics. It's just a step away from military coups and anarchy. Short of violation of the US Constitution or Wisconsin Constitution, a case I did not see made, there is never an excuse for recall. It was wrong when they did it against Gray Davis and it was wrong now. Not that I wouldn't have voted for the Dem, I would have, but I still would have thought it wrong for our general democracy. I don't think opposing the GOP at every possible step includes throwing the baby of democracy out with the bath water of a bad governor.

[MilesColtrane]

(06-06-2012 12:24 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Usurping legal elections just because you don't like their policies is what happens in banana republics. It's just a step away from military coups and anarchy. Short of violation of the US Constitution or Wisconsin Constitution, a case I did not see made, there is never an excuse for recall. It was wrong when they did it against Gray Davis and it was wrong now. Not that I wouldn't have voted for the Dem, I would have, but I still would have thought it wrong for our general democracy. I don't think opposing the GOP at every possible step includes throwing the baby of democracy out with the bath water of a bad governor.

Throwing out democracy?

On the contrary, popular referendums (recall elections being one example) are examples of direct democracy, and they are legal under some states laws. (unlike a coup d'état which is always illegal and frequently bloody)

[There Is No Spoon]

(06-06-2012 12:24 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 10:01 AM)MilesColtrane Wrote:  the national party leadership to tell the rank and file Democrats in Wisconsin to "shut up and sit down for the good of the party".

To their credit, they didn't do that.

I happen to think that the GOP and their corporate owners should be opposed in every way at every possible step.

You may see the recall election and subsequent defeat as tarnishing the Democratic brand, but I see it as a recruiting tool, i.e. "This is what Democrats do, we fight those who want to enslave us. Join us.".

Usurping legal elections just because you don't like their policies is what happens in banana republics. It's just a step away from military coups and anarchy. Short of violation of the US Constitution or Wisconsin Constitution, a case I did not see made, there is never an excuse for recall. It was wrong when they did it against Gray Davis and it was wrong now. Not that I wouldn't have voted for the Dem, I would have, but I still would have thought it wrong for our general democracy. I don't think opposing the GOP at every possible step includes throwing the baby of democracy out with the bath water of a bad governor.

Oh dear god - here we go with the devil's advocate arguments again.

If it was indeed "usurping legal elections" there would not be a LEGAL path for the recall of a governor or other elected (by the people, duh - get it?) official for lying about their intentions (as Walker did) or poor performance. You are confusing "impeachment" with "recall" - I didn't expect to see this line of argument made here as it is laughable.

[KonaKane]

(06-06-2012 01:27 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  Oh dear god - here we go with the devil's advocate arguments again.

If it was indeed "usurping legal elections" there would not be a LEGAL path for the recall of a governor or other elected (by the people, duh - get it?) official for lying about their intentions (as Walker did) or poor performance. You are confusing "impeachment" with "recall" - I didn't expect to see this line of argument made here as it is laughable.

I don't do that many AMEN posts here, but....AMEN.

[jaxx]

(06-06-2012 01:52 PM)KonaKane Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 01:27 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  Oh dear god - here we go with the devil's advocate arguments again.

If it was indeed "usurping legal elections" there would not be a LEGAL path for the recall of a governor or other elected (by the people, duh - get it?) official for lying about their intentions (as Walker did) or poor performance. You are confusing "impeachment" with "recall" - I didn't expect to see this line of argument made here as it is laughable.

I don't do that many AMEN posts here, but....AMEN.

Make that two Amen's.

[sandnsea]

(06-06-2012 01:27 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 12:24 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Usurping legal elections just because you don't like their policies is what happens in banana republics. It's just a step away from military coups and anarchy. Short of violation of the US Constitution or Wisconsin Constitution, a case I did not see made, there is never an excuse for recall. It was wrong when they did it against Gray Davis and it was wrong now. Not that I wouldn't have voted for the Dem, I would have, but I still would have thought it wrong for our general democracy. I don't think opposing the GOP at every possible step includes throwing the baby of democracy out with the bath water of a bad governor.

Oh dear god - here we go with the devil's advocate arguments again.

If it was indeed "usurping legal elections" there would not be a LEGAL path for the recall of a governor or other elected (by the people, duh - get it?) official for lying about their intentions (as Walker did) or poor performance. You are confusing "impeachment" with "recall" - I didn't expect to see this line of argument made here as it is laughable.

I sincerely wish you would stop with this devil's advocate bullshit. I speak my mind, period. I didn't say a word about the legality of anything. YOU put that bullshit in the debate as a distraction from what I did say. *I* don't think recalls are one of the appropriate means to oppose the GOP "at every turn". ME. Not the law. ME.

Stick to the subject or don't respond to me. You and Kona both.

[KonaKane]

(06-06-2012 08:06 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  I sincerely wish you would stop with this devil's advocate bullshit. I speak my mind, period. I didn't say a word about the legality of anything. YOU put that bullshit in the debate as a distraction from what I did say. *I* don't think recalls are one of the appropriate means to oppose the GOP "at every turn". ME. Not the law. ME.

Stick to the subject or don't respond to me. You and Kona both.

You're once again letting your fury overshadow the value of what was said. TINS was saying that there is a difference between impeachment and recall, the circumstances leading up to both you conflated into a single issue (being upset with someone in office). It indeed DOES matter whether it's a distaste for policy as opposed to high crimes and misdemeanors. That's why the two processes were invented.

[sandnsea]

(06-06-2012 08:33 PM)KonaKane Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 08:06 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  I sincerely wish you would stop with this devil's advocate bullshit. I speak my mind, period. I didn't say a word about the legality of anything. YOU put that bullshit in the debate as a distraction from what I did say. *I* don't think recalls are one of the appropriate means to oppose the GOP "at every turn". ME. Not the law. ME.

Stick to the subject or don't respond to me. You and Kona both.

You're once again letting your fury overshadow the value of what was said. TINS was saying that there is a difference between impeachment and recall, the circumstances leading up to both you conflated into a single issue (being upset with someone in office). It indeed DOES matter whether it's a distaste for policy as opposed to high crimes and misdemeanors. That's why the two processes were invented.

I never said there wasn't. Ever. I never conflated the two issues. *I* expressed my opinion that recalls should not be held just because you disagree with the elected official's policies. Period.

I am tired of YOU and TINS trying to make arguments against me by making up shit that I never said.

I well know the difference between an impeachment and a recall. I'm not an idiot.

Insert the rest yourself.

[KonaKane]

(06-06-2012 09:43 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  I never said there wasn't. Ever. I never conflated the two issues. *I* expressed my opinion that recalls should not be held just because you disagree with the elected official's policies. Period.

.....

Sigh. SnS, that's what recalls are for - when you disagree with an elected official's policies. What you just said was akin to saying you love opera until they start singing.

Bah, never mind. I can see where this is headed already. As usual.

[suzie]

(06-06-2012 08:06 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 01:27 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  Oh dear god - here we go with the devil's advocate arguments again.

If it was indeed "usurping legal elections" there would not be a LEGAL path for the recall of a governor or other elected (by the people, duh - get it?) official for lying about their intentions (as Walker did) or poor performance. You are confusing "impeachment" with "recall" - I didn't expect to see this line of argument made here as it is laughable.

I sincerely wish you would stop with this devil's advocate bullshit. I speak my mind, period. I didn't say a word about the legality of anything. YOU put that bullshit in the debate as a distraction from what I did say. *I* don't think recalls are one of the appropriate means to oppose the GOP "at every turn". ME. Not the law. ME.

Stick to the subject or don't respond to me. You and Kona both.

Your opinion on recalls seems to have been shared by some of the Wisconsin electorate.

Which must be why recalls are fairly unusual. And winning them is difficult.

Yours is a valid opinion that should be considered, without personal attack.

[There Is No Spoon]

(06-06-2012 08:06 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 01:27 PM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  Oh dear god - here we go with the devil's advocate arguments again.

If it was indeed "usurping legal elections" there would not be a LEGAL path for the recall of a governor or other elected (by the people, duh - get it?) official for lying about their intentions (as Walker did) or poor performance. You are confusing "impeachment" with "recall" - I didn't expect to see this line of argument made here as it is laughable.

I sincerely wish you would stop with this devil's advocate bullshit. I speak my mind, period. I didn't say a word about the legality of anything. YOU put that bullshit in the debate as a distraction from what I did say. *I* don't think recalls are one of the appropriate means to oppose the GOP "at every turn". ME. Not the law. ME.

Stick to the subject or don't respond to me. You and Kona both.

You threw out an enraged ranting that implies that Democrats were wrong for wanting to recall a guy who lied about his intentions when he was elected.

I chose to state that your positions are "devils advocate" arguments because that's exactly what they are. You are stating that the grass-roots effort of tens of thousands of Democrats in Wisconsin was similar to a "banana republic" even though it was within their rights as citizens to file for a recall. I take offense to that as a Democrat. You can have your opinion, but you don't have to be so nasty in expressing your opinions. You are known for expressing your opinions in a very forthright and confrontational manner and I'll be damned if I will be cowed into not responding in kind. You want to be a hardass? Fine with me, but don't fucking whine when some of us choose to respond using similarly strong language. It's called give-and-take - don't give if you can't take.

[Velleity]

Next up for Scotty and his Koch money, indictment.

[sandnsea]

(06-06-2012 11:32 AM)Velleity Wrote:  Next up for Scotty and his Koch money, indictment.

Which would be the appropriate time for a recall, but oops, already went down that road.

[KonaKane]

(06-06-2012 12:18 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  Which would be the appropriate time for a recall, but oops, already went down that road.

You don't need a recall for someone headed for an orange jump suit.

[Velleity]

(06-06-2012 12:18 PM)sandnsea Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 11:32 AM)Velleity Wrote:  Next up for Scotty and his Koch money, indictment.

Which would be the appropriate time for a recall, but oops, already went down that road.

Now that the Dems hold the Senate it might be grounds for impeachment.

[Blue_Roses]

As someone who was watching the outcome of this election from Texas, I can honestly say I know all-to-well how it feels to work your ass off to unseat a governor from his mighty throne only to have your ass handed to you in the election. My heart goes out to the Dems in Wisconsin and those who worked so hard to try to unseat that smug little bastard. But, there is a silver-lining. The new DEM seat that was picked up in the Senate AND an idea of what we are dealing with when it comes to the big $$$$ being thrown around this election year.

When we tried to unseat our governor--Rick, "ridiculous" Perry--from his mighty throne in Austin, we were met with similar circumstances, just different dialogue. In our governor dilemma, Perry, refused to debate Bill White. Perry knew that all his ignorance and "secrets" would be exposed for all to see, leaving our little "emperor" with no clothes. So he stone-walled and made excuses until there was no time and the election was over.

But, alas, karma is indeed a bitch! Yes, karma came in the form of those presidential debates that were so entertaining. Now, not only did the people in Texas see what has been propped up in Austin, with big $$$$ for so long, the whole nation saw how completely incompetent this governor is and how he most definitely will have his ass handed to him next round. Even many of the repubs were embarrassed.

While this story is no consolation for last night's disappointment, there is karma, and she is a bitch. The key to karma's success, is not to get in front of her before she has time to do her magic. This is where Obama has mastered the play and has my respect. He has the ability to see things in the long run, without reacting first. Brilliant man.

It's so hard to not point fingers and lay blame when we have these outcomes, but it doesn't help the long-term outcome and it takes away from all the good that is done. No, we need to lay blame squarely at the feet of those who deserve it and all their $$$$. That's where the energy needs to go. Exposing the corruption and lies.

[MandelaObama]

Last year during my all-too-brief visit to the United States (unfortunately cut short) I attended Netroots Nation and sat through a forum which was focused on the ongoing situation in Wisconsin and the grassroots efforts to mobilize against Scott Walker's policies. The panel for the session included leading figures in the grassroots organizations involved in the campaign who talked about various strategies, mobilization efforts, the upcoming recall elections for state senators and so on. It was very interesting

As part of the forum, we had a Q&A session and I recall that someone asked one of the lead organizers whether they would be organizing a recall effort against Gov Walker. The response to that question was to the effect that they were going to play it cautiously, see what the outcome of the recall elections later in 2011 was and then they would take all the factors into consideration before making a final decision. When the recall elections happened and Democrats failed to retake the State Senate and won 2 out of the 6 races, I remember a few voices urging that we shouldn't proceed with a recall, there wasn't sufficient voter enthusiasm and momentum for it and giving a few other reasons, some of which are now being recognized as factors in contributing to the gubernational recall's defeat. So when the organizers decided to go ahead with the recall, I was somewhat surprised. I can't claim to have been opposed to it -because my hatred of Scott Walker and everything he represents overwhelmed almost every other emotion -but I did think that it was somewhat of an unusual call given the political and electoral trends seemed to be against its chances of succeeding

I think this may have set back the cause temporarily -although I'm not sure I would go as far as to say "it's undermined our own movement" -but I think much depends on how progressive and labor responds to the results. They will need some sort of cohesive strategy to deal with the fallout from the loss and will need to avoid falling into the trap of despondency, disillusionment and division. I know that sounds terribly cliched and it is but it's also true. I don't think this will have that much of an impact on President Obama in November -if anything hopefully it will help remind us not to be complacent and to work for his re-election with every iota of heart, mind and soul.

I remember after the 2004 presidential election -which came after the midterm drubbing Democrats received in 2002 -and how all of us were despondent and there were all these bold predictions about the Republicans having a lifetime majority and how they were going to transform the national landscape, abolish social security, establish a conservative hegemony etc, etc. And then four years later look what happened. We've got to keep believing, keep hoping and keep fighting and never give up hope. I do need to take some of my own advice more on this front so believe me, I know how difficult it is

[Peacetrain]

But kiddo you have the most piss poor timing of anybody I know..You just have to suck it up sometimes and not just regurgitate your fears and disappointment while things are settling down, its all about timing.

[KonaKane]

As PeaceTrain said, timing is everything. Apparently it's a skill honed with time (age?).

[Peacetrain]

(06-07-2012 12:14 PM)KonaKane Wrote:  As PeaceTrain said, timing is everything. Apparently it's a skill honed with time (age?).

[kahuna]

(06-07-2012 12:14 PM)KonaKane Wrote:  As PeaceTrain said, timing is everything. Apparently it's a skill honed with time (age?).

I'm 58. Another thing that SHOULD come with age is patience and understanding and the ability to nurture our young.

[KonaKane]

(06-09-2012 09:04 AM)kahuna Wrote:  I'm 58. Another thing that SHOULD come with age is patience and understanding and the ability to nurture our young.

To a limit. At some point you have to take away the breast, and fire the grief nurse.

[Leaning Right]

I'd like to add a view from the center/Right side of the spectrum.

I don't see the recall vote as being something negative, in fact, I think it could serve to strengthen the democrat party - but at the same time, I think it weakens organized labor.

There has been a voluntary trend away from organized labor in the last two decades, and the WI election (to me) signals a split. The democrats now number higher in the Senate, as formerly noted.

The failure to recall is not a referendum on the democrat party - it's just a referendum on organized labor.

One interview I watched pre-recall showed WI democrats saying they did not support labor's push to get rid of Walker because they were NOT labor members and did not want to vote for union workers to have more than they have.

That's understandable. When given the choice, more and more union members drop their memberships.

WI shows that not defining the democrat party by its support of organized labor, could strengthen the party.

Everything has its time and the time for strong labor is over.

[jaxx]

(06-09-2012 07:14 AM)Leaning Right Wrote:  I'd like to add a view from the center/Right side of the spectrum.

I don't see the recall vote as being something negative, in fact, I think it could serve to strengthen the democrat party - but at the same time, I think it weakens organized labor.

There has been a voluntary trend away from organized labor in the last two decades, and the WI election (to me) signals a split. The democrats now number higher in the Senate, as formerly noted.

The failure to recall is not a referendum on the democrat party - it's just a referendum on organized labor.

One interview I watched pre-recall showed WI democrats saying they did not support labor's push to get rid of Walker because they were NOT labor members and did not want to vote for union workers to have more than they have.

That's understandable. When given the choice, more and more union members drop their memberships.

WI shows that not defining the democrat party by its support of organized labor, could strengthen the party.

Everything has its time and the time for strong labor is over.

It's the Democratic Party, not the democrat party. Please remember that as you post at the Democrats For Progress. Thanks.

If the time for strong labor is over then we'll assume that you are in favor of losing
competitive wages
the 5 day workweek
paid vacation time
health care benefits
safe work places
fair labor practices
and so many other things that unions have brought to the workplace throughout the years. You take them for granted, but they were hard fought so that all can enjoy them. The benefits weren't a gift from the owners.

[Leaning Right]

(06-09-2012 08:10 AM)jaxx Wrote:  It's the Democratic Party, not the democrat party. Please remember that as you post at the Democrats For Progress. Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind. It's one of my downfalls. I tend to abbreviate. I prefer to write repubs and GOP at times instead of Republicans, but I'll try to remember.

Quote:If the time for strong labor is over then we'll assume that you are in favor of losing
competitive wages
the 5 day workweek
paid vacation time
health care benefits
safe work places
fair labor practices
and so many other things that unions have brought to the workplace throughout the years. You take them for granted, but they were hard fought so that all can enjoy them. The benefits weren't a gift from the owners.

I'm not in favor of losing or keeping those, except the safe and fair working conditions. Those must be kept. I run my own business and have for years. I've not had a 5-day work week in a long time. No paid vacation for me either. I certainly don't begrudge anyone else who has those perks, though.

There was once a need for organized labor. Now, not so much. It appears that democrats are divorcing themselves from labor, and that could strengthen the Democratic (see, I remembered) Party in my opinion.

OSHA and EOE regulations are unlikely to be dismissed just because organized labor is not needed as much today as it once was.

We now have regulatory agencies that were not in existence when the labor movement formed. I agree that labor forced the regulations, but now, it might be time to look toward the future and how we can make it better for all of us.

Sometimes, I think we have to move forward if we want to progress. That doesn't mean that something we once held dear was not valuable. It just means that it might not be as valuable in today's society as it once was.

[jaxx]

(06-09-2012 08:35 AM)Leaning Right Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 08:10 AM)jaxx Wrote:  It's the Democratic Party, not the democrat party. Please remember that as you post at the Democrats For Progress. Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind. It's one of my downfalls. I tend to abbreviate. I prefer to write repubs and GOP at times instead of Republicans, but I'll try to remember.

Quote:If the time for strong labor is over then we'll assume that you are in favor of losing
competitive wages
the 5 day workweek
paid vacation time
health care benefits
safe work places
fair labor practices
and so many other things that unions have brought to the workplace throughout the years. You take them for granted, but they were hard fought so that all can enjoy them. The benefits weren't a gift from the owners.

I'm not in favor of losing or keeping those, except the safe and fair working conditions. Those must be kept. I run my own business and have for years. I've not had a 5-day work week in a long time. No paid vacation for me either. I certainly don't begrudge anyone else who has those perks, though.

There was once a need for organized labor. Now, not so much. It appears that democrats are divorcing themselves from labor, and that could strengthen the Democratic (see, I remembered) Party in my opinion.

OSHA and EOE regulations are unlikely to be dismissed just because organized labor is not needed as much today as it once was.

We now have regulatory agencies that were not in existence when the labor movement formed. I agree that labor forced the regulations, but now, it might be time to look toward the future and how we can make it better for all of us.

Sometimes, I think we have to move forward if we want to progress. That doesn't mean that something we once held dear was not valuable. It just means that it might not be as valuable in today's society as it once was.

Progress doesn't go backwards. Making it better for all of us is a living wage paid to all workers. Fair labor laws, and all the rest.

[Leaning Right]

(06-09-2012 08:45 AM)jaxx Wrote:  Progress doesn't go backwards. Making it better for all of us is a living wage paid to all workers. Fair labor laws, and all the rest.

That's what I mean. The old horse and buckboard was a godsend, but once the auto came along - the buggy gradually became obsolete.

[There Is No Spoon]

(06-09-2012 08:51 AM)Leaning Right Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 08:45 AM)jaxx Wrote:  Progress doesn't go backwards. Making it better for all of us is a living wage paid to all workers. Fair labor laws, and all the rest.

That's what I mean. The old horse and buckboard was a godsend, but once the auto came along - the buggy gradually became obsolete.

How is lowering wages and benefits to all workers "a godsend"?

That's not progress, that's regression - and it's seems to be the theme of the Republican party of late - push women's and other rights - like voting rights - back into the 1950's. You can't possibly think this trend is a good thing?

[Leaning Right]

(06-09-2012 09:23 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  How is lowering wages and benefits to all workers "a godsend"?

That's not progress, that's regression - and it's seems to be the theme of the Republican party of late - push women's and other rights - like voting rights - back into the 1950's. You can't possibly think this trend is a good thing?

I think moving forward is good for all.

I'm not convinced that not supporting labor unions would result in lower wages and benefits "for all workers." Especially, since most workers are not members of unions. That's why the democrats in WI did not come out in droves as they might have thirty years ago.

No one should push back anyone's rights, so, of course I do not support that. I'm not sure asking to see ID infringes on voting rights in any appreciable number. It might here and there, but I can't imagine that 99.99 percent of the US citizens don't already have valid IDs. Most states require them for any type of benefits, driving, etc.

I guess I missed the part about women's rights. Are you talking about that selective abortion thing that the Catholic Church is a war on women? Because I'm not a prolifer. I think women should have the right to abort at will in the first trimester, and then, with some latitude in later stages. In the long run - it should be between a woman and her doctor.

[There Is No Spoon]

(06-09-2012 09:52 AM)Leaning Right Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 09:23 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  How is lowering wages and benefits to all workers "a godsend"?

That's not progress, that's regression - and it's seems to be the theme of the Republican party of late - push women's and other rights - like voting rights - back into the 1950's. You can't possibly think this trend is a good thing?

I think moving forward is good for all.

I'm not convinced that not supporting labor unions would result in lower wages and benefits "for all workers." Especially, since most workers are not members of unions. That's why the democrats in WI did not come out in droves as they might have thirty years ago.

Going to hit on one theme at a time here.

Do you not agree that middle income is getting squeezed out of existence? Does it bother you that income gap is as bad as it's been since the Great Depression?

Does this chart seem like it makes sense intuitively to you?

[jaxx]

(06-09-2012 09:52 AM)Leaning Right Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 09:23 AM)There Is No Spoon Wrote:  How is lowering wages and benefits to all workers "a godsend"?

That's not progress, that's regression - and it's seems to be the theme of the Republican party of late - push women's and other rights - like voting rights - back into the 1950's. You can't possibly think this trend is a good thing?

I think moving forward is good for all.

I'm not convinced that not supporting labor unions would result in lower wages and benefits "for all workers." Especially, since most workers are not members of unions. That's why the democrats in WI did not come out in droves as they might have thirty years ago.

No one should push back anyone's rights, so, of course I do not support that. I'm not sure asking to see ID infringes on voting rights in any appreciable number. It might here and there, but I can't imagine that 99.99 percent of the US citizens don't already have valid IDs. Most states require them for any type of benefits, driving, etc.

I guess I missed the part about women's rights. Are you talking about that selective abortion thing that the Catholic Church is a war on women? Because I'm not a prolifer. I think women should have the right to abort at will in the first trimester, and then, with some latitude in later stages. In the long run - it should be between a woman and her doctor.

O.M.G. voter ID is a huge part of voter suppression. Most of them cost money and the elderly and the poor aren't exactly well off.

How do you vote for someone who voices their intent to overturn Roe v Wade?

[Leaning Right]

(06-09-2012 10:38 AM)jaxx Wrote:  O.M.G. voter ID is a huge part of voter suppression. Most of them cost money and the elderly and the poor aren't exactly well off.

If the poor drive - or if they want to apply for a job - they have to have the ID. If someone REALLY cannot afford an ID - let's pay for it!

An ID is something we need to cash checks - open checking accounts - fill out info at the doctor's office and we have to show the cops our ID if we get behind the wheel.

We have groups that go into rest homes and transport the elderly to vote. Those groups can mobilize and help them get an ID if they don't have one. I'll help.

I've heard before that some say this is voter suppression - but I have to disagree.

Quote:How do you vote for someone who voices their intent to overturn Roe v Wade?

Me personally? It would depend. Since I think it'd be tough to overturn Roe V Wade, I wouldn't put a lot of stock into that claim.

Didn't Reagan say something like that too?

That'd mean the candidate would have to stuff the Supreme Court and how likely is that?

Possible, sure - but likely?

I wouldn't give that claim much credibility but I'd look at the rest of the candidate's positions as a whole and compare them against his/her opponent's positions. I've crossed the ticket to vote before. I have no problem doing that if need be.

Unfortunately, sometimes we don't get good choices - our choice ends up begin the lesser of two evils. I think we end up balancing out each other fairly well, though....overall.

[sandnsea]

(06-09-2012 12:27 PM)Leaning Right Wrote:  let's pay for it!

I don't think that's legal. Vague recollection of a GOP attack on a black activist in Florida because he helped pay for stamps for absentee ballots. They used the law about paying people to vote to stop him. Something along those lines.

Nope. You can't help people to the tune of $40 for an ID - plus the cost of a certified birth certificate if they don't have one. Not to mention poor people who are struggling to keep the water and power on do not have time or energy to deal with this crap.

Which of course is the point - anything to keep poor people from voting.

Seriously - what's the explanation for blanketing poor and minority neighborhoods with posters giving the wrong day to vote? Phone calls threatening that they'll be arrested if they've got an unpaid parking ticket? Lying to them about what is required to vote or register? Intimidating them into thinking they'll go to jail if they made a mistake on their registration?

What will you do with the facts?

[CTLawGuy]

(06-09-2012 08:35 AM)Leaning Right Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 08:10 AM)jaxx Wrote:  It's the Democratic Party, not the democrat party. Please remember that as you post at the Democrats For Progress. Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind. It's one of my downfalls. I tend to abbreviate. I prefer to write repubs and GOP at times instead of Republicans, but I'll try to remember.

Yeah, right. And I'm the King of France.

[janedrake]

@Leaning Right - re: your remarks on voter ID - like many I've read from those who "lean right" - sound so reasonable - because they take a dead stop at the question, "what's so wrong about having ID - everyone should want to have ID, everyone needs ID." What always astonishes me about folks in this country is that we are the best at actually ignoring what we don't want to acknowledge - for whatever reason.

Here's the voter suppression part -- Walker changed the law to include stricter voter ID laws - and then he systematically made it harder to obtain the ID. Take a look at this - including the embedded links in the piece:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07...oses-dmvs/

-- After reading it, can you still honestly say you don't see any sign of voter suppression? Yes, we can fight back by picking up 80-year-old Ms. Reynolds to take her to a Republican district to get her ID - but that doesn't mean Scott Walker has not engaged in a clear effort to suppress the votes of those who lean left. When the whole story is told - stricter voter ID laws + systematic efforts to make it harder to obtain the required ID - that adds up to voter suppression.