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Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - There Is No Spoon - 04-23-2012 08:42 AM
The Amnesia Candidate
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: April 22, 2012
Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? If you’ve been following his campaign from the beginning, that’s a question you have probably asked many times.
But the question was raised with particular force last week, when Mr. Romney tried to make a closed drywall factory in Ohio a symbol of the Obama administration’s economic failure. It was a symbol, all right — but not in the way he intended.
First of all, many reporters quickly noted a point that Mr. Romney somehow failed to mention: George W. Bush, not Barack Obama, was president when the factory in question was closed. Does the Romney campaign expect Americans to blame President Obama for his predecessor’s policy failure?
Yes, it does. Mr. Romney constantly talks about job losses under Mr. Obama. Yet all of the net job loss took place in the first few months of 2009, that is, before any of the new administration’s policies had time to take effect. So the Ohio speech was a perfect illustration of the way the Romney campaign is banking on amnesia, on the hope that voters don’t remember that Mr. Obama inherited an economy that was already in free fall.
... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/opinion/krugman-the-amnesia-candidate.html?_r=2
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - jaxx - 04-23-2012 08:54 AM
Willard hopes we are as stupid as the bushco policy loving wingnuts who follow him. It's his turn and he's going to kiss those asses till his lips fall off.
I liked this little bit of info in the article:
Quote:70 percent of public job losses have been either in Texas or in states where Republicans recently took control.
When Willard goes on his jobs benders, this is fact that will make him stutter.
Aside here.....when I turned on the tv today the first person I heard was Willard ranting somewhere. His voice was shaking (getting the Santorum low, gravely sound when he got going on a "moral" issue), he was stuttering in his hurry to get it all out. The man seems to be fraying at the seams.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - azmouse - 04-23-2012 09:03 AM
We should keep a thread open just to list and document all of Romney's lies leading up to the general election.
Does DFP have enough bandwidth to handle a thread that enormous?
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - janedrake - 04-23-2012 09:22 AM
I absolutely agree with the points Krugman makes about Romney's completely dishonest strategy... BUT...
I absolutely don't agree with Krugman that the President could have done anything differently in the political environment of early 2009 (we didn't get 60 votes in the Senate until April 2009, I believe, when Norm Coleman was finally stopped in his quest to hold up Al Franken' senate seat win) - nor that the administration "rested on its laurels" or that it "pivoted" solely to the topic of deficit-reduction at the expense of job creation. Those paragraphs almost ruin the rest of the piece for me.
With Krugman, it always seems to be a battle of the "Good Krugman" vs. the "Evil Krugman" - the evil Krugman being the one who delights in perpetuating firebagger nonsense.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - There Is No Spoon - 04-23-2012 10:13 AM
(04-23-2012 09:22 AM)janedrake Wrote: I absolutely agree with the points Krugman makes about Romney's completely dishonest strategy... BUT...
I absolutely don't agree with Krugman that the President could have done anything differently in the political environment of early 2009 (we didn't get 60 votes in the Senate until April 2009, I believe, when Norm Coleman was finally stopped in his quest to hold up Al Franken' senate seat win) - nor that the administration "rested on its laurels" or that it "pivoted" solely to the topic of deficit-reduction at the expense of job creation. Those paragraphs almost ruin the rest of the piece for me.
With Krugman, it always seems to be a battle of the "Good Krugman" vs. the "Evil Krugman" - the evil Krugman being the one who delights in perpetuating firebagger nonsense.
I disagree. I had no problem with him adding a little "this" with "that" - its not like he's equivocating like CNN does, it's a reasonable point of criticism.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - Velleity - 04-23-2012 10:44 AM
(04-23-2012 09:22 AM)janedrake Wrote: I absolutely agree with the points Krugman makes about Romney's completely dishonest strategy... BUT...
I absolutely don't agree with Krugman that the President could have done anything differently in the political environment of early 2009 (we didn't get 60 votes in the Senate until April 2009, I believe, when Norm Coleman was finally stopped in his quest to hold up Al Franken' senate seat win) - nor that the administration "rested on its laurels" or that it "pivoted" solely to the topic of deficit-reduction at the expense of job creation. Those paragraphs almost ruin the rest of the piece for me.
With Krugman, it always seems to be a battle of the "Good Krugman" vs. the "Evil Krugman" - the evil Krugman being the one who delights in perpetuating firebagger nonsense.
I don't speak for Professor Krugman but I do regularly read his blog and I feel that my economics training affords me some insight into where he's coming from.
I don't think it's "good vs. evil" Krugman. I think he's on board 100%. You will not see him endorse the current "conservative" or Republican iterations and it's doubtful that either the ideology or political party will come around to a point where Krugman would endorse either.
I don't think Krugman is willing to compromise his opinion as to what he thinks we need to do to recover from the depression caused by "conservative" stupidity. What Krugman thinks we need to do is fiscal stimulus, way more than we had, and he has a winning argument there. He seems to me to be allowing for the fact that President Obama has been obstructed, but still unwilling to let President Obama totally off the hook.
I actually think that's fair. Whether we like it or not presidents are judged by what happens on their watch regardless of fault. And too, as much as I like President Obama (and I don't find a bigger fan) good economic policy is, I'm afraid, more important than he is.
I am actually shocked at how well "conservatives" are doing in terms of resurrecting their zombie ideology so the battle continues and there's a lot at stake. Their Paul Ryan budget really is a Trojan Horse.
No one ever went broke - NJMaverick - 04-23-2012 10:46 AM
overestimating the stupidity and ignorance of the American public
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - janedrake - 04-23-2012 11:05 AM
TINS and Velleity - I take your points, but am not as willing to give Krugman a pass. He's brilliant (obviously) on economics, but he can sometimes be completely wrong in how he assesses the real-world politics of a situation.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - KonaKane - 04-23-2012 11:32 AM
This is absolutely pro forma for the man. Remember that he is a child of privilege and entitlement. For them, the rules don't apply. Laws don't apply. Not even reality applies. From the photo of him playing on the surf on Easer Sunday (something a devout Mormon, which he claims he is, would NEVER do) to reshaping reality with his lies and expecting you to believe him, every move from this guy conforms to his title of privilege.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - Velleity - 04-23-2012 11:59 AM
(04-23-2012 10:46 AM)NJMaverick Wrote: overestimating the stupidity and ignorance of the American public
And in Romney's case he only has to appeal to the stupid, ignorant, and the people like him who are scamming the stupid and the ignorant.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - Velleity - 04-23-2012 12:00 PM
(04-23-2012 11:05 AM)janedrake Wrote: TINS and Velleity - I take your points, but am not as willing to give Krugman a pass. He's brilliant (obviously) on economics, but he can sometimes be completely wrong in how he assesses the real-world politics of a situation.
I don't give him a pass on anything. I believe I am understanding where he is coming from.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - janedrake - 04-23-2012 12:20 PM
Fine, Velleity - but I just happen to believe that where Krugman's coming from often serves to dampen Democratic voters' enthusiasm whether he intends it to or not.
For instance, Krugman is always harping on how the fiscal stimulus should have been bigger regardless of whether or not there was the Congressional will to get a larger stimulus passed. Even now, he's doing the same thing. An aside comment acknowledging the "political restraints" of 2009 isn't the same as acknowledging that a larger stimulus and other items on Krugman's wish list in reality did not have the votes needed to pass the Senate.
Instead of giving Obama credit for actually negotiating the three Republican votes he needed to get the Recovery Act passed, Krugman still frames his discussion in terms of "disappointment," even going so far as to say the WH went on to rest on its laurels, etc. I happen to see that as complete nonsense and so, can't find myself reading Krugman's political observations without a grain of salt.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - Velleity - 04-23-2012 01:31 PM
(04-23-2012 12:20 PM)janedrake Wrote: Fine, Velleity - but I just happen to believe that where Krugman's coming from often serves to dampen Democratic voters' enthusiasm whether he intends it to or not.
He's an academic economist. It's his job to offer his honest, scholarly opinion on economic issues regardless how it affects Democrats. He has said as much, saying he could never accept a political appointment for that exact reason.
I don't think we want Professor Krugman to be the equivalent of a FoxPAC. Do we?
Quote:For instance, Krugman is always harping on how the fiscal stimulus should have been bigger regardless of whether or not there was the Congressional will to get a larger stimulus passed. Even now, he's doing the same thing. An aside comment acknowledging the "political restraints" of 2009 isn't the same as acknowledging that a larger stimulus and other items on Krugman's wish list in reality did not have the votes needed to pass the Senate.
The fiscal stimulus should have been greater, and he has given his reasons in great detail. I don't think there is even a valid counter-argument.
The fact that President Obama has been obstructed is "an aside."
Quote:Instead of giving Obama credit for actually negotiating the three Republican votes he needed to get the Recovery Act passed, Krugman still frames his discussion in terms of "disappointment," even going so far as to say the WH went on to rest on its laurels, etc. I happen to see that as complete nonsense and so, can't find myself reading Krugman's political observations without a grain of salt.
I could point you to a few thousand people who are way more malicious than Paul Krugman. If he was the worst "problem" we had we'd be way, way better off than we are right now.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - KonaKane - 04-23-2012 01:54 PM
Well put, Velleity. We have to get off this kick of going into snap enemy mode with anyone who has the slightest criticism of Obama, or lacks the proper "enthusiasm" with a policy choice. The facts, and some intelligent analysis, usually favor Obama anyway so there is no need to be alienating people who are mostly on our side for those reasons.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - janedrake - 04-23-2012 02:15 PM
Velleity - here's the counter-argument on the fiscal stimulus - the votes were not there. So why does Krugman keep harping on it. He knows the president didn't institute the stimulus and other recovery measures by fiat - the congressional votes had to be there. So, even acknowledging the "political restraints" of 2009 doesn't cut the continued sniping from Krugman about what should have been done, when the votes were not there to do it.
In any case, I started out being a huge Krugman fan, but he lost me with what I see as his determined streak of being unable to separate what is politically achievable from what is intellectually ideal. And the way he chooses to couch this by sniping at Obama is very frustrating. Look at this article, he wastes no opportunity to remind us all as to why he's so disappointed with Obama. Fine, he's entitled to his opinion, and we're all entitled to our opinion about his opinion.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - There Is No Spoon - 04-23-2012 02:20 PM
Once again, completely disagree - we need to be able to accept a certain amount of criticism and Krugman is far from being over the top 95% of the time. I respect somebody who isn't afraid to push our side harder - we're certainly not perfect!
I think Velleity said it best and in a very fair way too.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - janedrake - 04-23-2012 02:26 PM
TINS - my problem with Krugman is that oftentimes his criticism isn't fair, and I know I'm in the minority of his readers on that.
Edited to add: This is not about "accepting a certain amount of criticism" for me - it's about, even if it comes from Krugman, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a fair criticism.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - jaxx - 04-23-2012 08:29 PM
(04-23-2012 02:26 PM)janedrake Wrote: TINS - my problem with Krugman is that oftentimes his criticism isn't fair, and I know I'm in the minority of his readers on that.
Edited to add: This is not about "accepting a certain amount of criticism" for me - it's about, even if it comes from Krugman, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a fair criticism.
I don't read Krugman for that very reason.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - sandnsea - 04-23-2012 10:12 PM
Face it, we're stupid. That's how the GOP gets away with it.
RE: Just how stupid does Mitt Romney think we are? - KonaKane - 04-24-2012 04:20 PM
Krugman is a commentator, not an advocate. We are an advocacy site here, so there is going to be friction for obvious reasons.